[Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 11, Issue 5
Murali Krishna
bmkrishna6 at gmail.com
Wed Jul 6 22:37:18 CDT 2011
Good day Mel,
I ppreciate your concern.
Regards,
Krishna.
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 8:39 PM, <finstein at envsci.rutgers.edu> wrote:
> Regarding sugar as a soil amendment:
>
> Consider the environmental cost of growing cane (or other sugar rich
> plant) and that of refining the sugar. Putting aside any supposed benefit,
> this should give pause to the "idea" being discussed!
>
> Mel
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Send Digestion mailing list submissions to
> > digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > digestion-owner at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of Digestion digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: Digestate as fertilizer. (Anand Karve)
> > 2. Re: Digestate as fertilizer. (Jean-Luc Sallustro)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 11:02:23 +0800
> > From: Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com>
> > To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
> > <digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestate as fertilizer.
> > Message-ID:
> > <
> CACPy7SfafYs8oZk0PHPPSQMQp-hdhKaeKt9-4C0Qg-zSZOnZ0w at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >
> > Dear Jean-Luc,
> > on dry weight basis, green leaves have the same nutritional calorific
> > value as sugar. Therefore, when farmers apply green manure to crops,
> > they are also feeding the soil microbes. It is recommended by many
> > sugar factories in India to grow a green manure crop between the rows
> > of sugarcane, at the time of planting sugarcane, and then to plough
> > the green manure into the soil at two month stage of the crop.
> > Analysis of soils before and after this operation showed an almost
> > doubling of N,P and K in the soil. This increase in NPK did not come
> > directly from the green matter incorporated into the soil but through
> > the microbes, which multipled their numbers when they fed on the green
> > matter and took up minerals directly from the soil. We acknowledge the
> > fact that the top 10 to 15 cm layer of soil in a field is very
> > fertile, but we do not call it humus, because the organic content in
> > our soils is always very low. The fertility of this layer is
> > contributed by the fact that leaves, animal dung, and other organic
> > residues fall on top of the soil, where they are decomposed by aerobic
> > micro-organisms. As I stated above, the microbes multiply their
> > numbers when provided with any source of organic carbon. In the
> > process of multiplication, they take up the minerals directly from the
> > capillary water in the soil. Soil contains an infinite variety of
> > microbes, and those which are best adapted to that particular soil
> > condition multiply. If the soil is phosphate deficient, the phosphate
> > solubilizing bacteria would multiply. If the soil were nitrogen
> > deficient, the N-fixing microbes would be better able to survive than
> > the non-fixing ones, and if the soil were saline, the halophytic
> > microbes would have the upper hand over others. It is plain "survival
> > of the fittest". After the microbes have exhausted the food, they die
> > of starvation and release the organo-mineral compounds into the soil,
> > increasing thereby the soil fertility. The organo-mineral complexes,
> > such as proteins, enzymes and co-enzymes are soluble in water and they
> > can be readily taken up by plants. The plants don't care from which
> > category of microbes they get their minerals. There is no need to
> > apply chemical fertilizers to the soil. And there is also no need to
> > apply any special kinds of bacterial cultures to the soil.
> > Yours
> > A.D.Karve
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 3:05 PM, Jean-Luc Sallustro
> > <jean-luc.sallustro at eventure-international.com> wrote:
> >> Dear Anand,
> >>
> >> I am really interested by this vision of sugar nutrient cycle.
> >> Let me say first that even if I am from Europe, (you are right on this
> >> point) my group is in Mauritius, and then involved with sugar cane
> >> agronomy
> >> (or other Poacae)
> >> Sure that cellulose is a kind of sugar ... but strongly polymerized, at
> >> a
> >> point that the only bacterial strain enabling its degradation is aerobic
> >> and
> >> particularly thermophilic.
> >> Soils macro decomposers such as colemboles or worms alternatively or
> >> complementary play a role within this decomposition stage of cellulose
> >> and
> >> hemicellulosis.
> >> What seems to me of utmost interest in your assessment is that sugar (I
> >> assume you are considering raw sugar ?) provides for direct enhancement
> >> of
> >> soil fertility (when bring with organic N) for the reason that this
> >> immediately available energy positively stresses bacterial flora (but
> >> which
> >> strains in particular ?) and then allows the production of mineral
> >> nutrients
> >> to reach the plants depending on export demands (Poacae are C4 type and
> >> therefore strongly dependant from photocycles and water availability).
> >> The way different +/- polymerized sugars reach the soil is a well known
> >> thing, but what's about humus role (even as thin it seems ... there is
> >> always an upper layer of biomass on the 0 to 15 cm depth of soils), and
> >> what
> >> is happening as an interaction between microbial activity in this
> >> superior
> >> soil level, sugar solution (rain fed context) and other N linked
> >> bacterial
> >> strains ?
> >> My hypothesis was that there is a risk of demobilisation of these
> >> endemic
> >> bacterial strains, maybe one can put the question like this "when
> >> stopping
> >> "sugar feeding" what will happen with organic N, P and K availability ?"
> >> All the best
> >> Jean-Luc
> >>
> >> Le lundi 04 juillet 2011 ? 12:11 +0800, Anand Karve a ?crit :
> >>
> >> Dear Jean-Luc,
> >> feeding sugar to the soil microbes is done by the plants themselves.
> >> The water of guttation of sorghum and safflower contains sugar. All
> >> the plants that are infested by aphids also drop sugar on the ground
> >> below their canopy. The leaves that fall on the ground also contain a
> >> type of sugar (cellulose), In the case of many trees, one finds a
> >> carpet of fruits underneath their canopy. The fruits contain sugars.
> >> Chickpea (Cicer arietinum) leaves exude organic acids, which too fall
> >> on the ground to feed the soil microbes. In India, in the region where
> >> I live, literally thousands of farmers have taken up the practice of
> >> applying sugar to the field. For every hectare,they use a mixture of
> >> 25 kg sugar, 25 kg cattle dung and 25 litres cattle urine. It is
> >> applied once every three months. In an earlier experiment, I got the
> >> soil from a non-irrigated and non-fertilized field analysed
> >> consecutively for 5 years and found that in spite of growing crops on
> >> this soil, there was no change in the soil composition over this
> >> period. In India, the agricultural yield is positively correlated with
> >> the rainfall and not with any other factors like the sale of
> >> fertilizers, pesticides, hybrid seed, etc. Humus is a typical topic
> >> raised by European agricultural scientists. Nobody talks of it in
> >> India, most probably because our soils do not have the humus layer
> >> that European soils have.
> >> Yours
> >> A.D.Karve
> >> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 10:52 PM, Jean-Luc Sallustro
> >> <jean-luc.sallustro at eventure-international.com> wrote:
> >>> Dear A? D Karve
> >>>
> >>> For my understanding microbes have an important role in the soil at a
> >>> stage
> >>> where endemic proto nutrient are made available for them within the
> >>> humic
> >>> clay complex.
> >>> This deep stage of macro nutrient (organic NPK) evolution can be
> >>> depleted
> >>> for many reasons such as K sustainable sequestration, unavailability of
> >>> macro nutrient, not enough water percolation (soil solubility) etc.
> >>> Don't you think that one of the risks of depletion in N chain can be
> >>> the
> >>> demobilization of upper soil decomposers due to the fact that
> >>> immedialty
> >>> avalible nutrient are provided (sugar)
> >>> Regards
> >>> J-L Sallustro
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Digestion mailing list
> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> >> Digestion at bioenergylists.org
> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >> for more information about digestion, see
> >> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> >> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> >> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Digestion mailing list
> >>
> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> >> Digestion at bioenergylists.org
> >>
> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>
> >> for more information about digestion, see
> >> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> >> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> >> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > ***
> > Dr. A.D. Karve
> > President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
> >
> > *Please change my email address in your records to: adkarve at gmail.com *
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2011 18:45:16 +0400
> > From: Jean-Luc Sallustro
> > <jean-luc.sallustro at eventure-international.com>
> > To: digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestate as fertilizer.
> > Message-ID: <1309877116.2371.43.camel at laptop-jls>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15"
> >
> > Dear Anand,
> >
> > I shall stress on the fact that we, in Mauritius and elsewhere in
> > Africa, are fighting against this abusive use of chemical fertilizers.
> > This battle is at a point that one of our subsidiary is totally devoted
> > to a project which aims at producing organo-mineral fertilizer providing
> > that we are supplied with compost and digestats issuing from several
> > composting and biodigester plants we are builidng (treatment of poultry
> > waste, sugar factory waste and ethanol distillery effluents, hostels
> > organic waste ...) Then I totally agree with your assessment regarding
> > the fact there is no inescapable need for chemical fertilizer.
> > Now, my question was on the use of raw sugar not on the soundness of a
> > biofertilization strategy. Once again I would like to stress on the fact
> > that "sugar fertilization" seems to be a very interesting alternative
> > to CMS for example.
> > Let me rise again the point related to the comparison you make between
> > sugar (as a low level polymerised carbonaceous compound) and cellulosis
> > and hemicellulosis. For my understanding the very question is here to
> > define what we call "organic matter", not in absolute terms of calorific
> > value but through an ecological point of view then taking into account
> > the complex interaction of microbial strains, macro decomposers,
> > chemical role of water as a solvant, chemical role of clay as a substrat
> > for H+ ions exchanges etc ... We all know a bit about NPK export from
> > soils solutions to plants but it seems to me that we are not enough
> > aware about organic matter, and worst about biomass in soils. As an
> > example I have raised the fact that sugar will feed a particular class
> > of microbes (and maybe other macro biotypes) and that will maybe imply
> > that a lot of other bacterial strains will disappear or be weakened
> > (celullosis decompostion ones). Do you have some observation to share on
> > this point ?
> > Best regards
> > jean-luc
> >
> >
> > Le mardi 05 juillet 2011 ? 11:02 +0800, Anand Karve a ?crit :
> >
> >> Dear Jean-Luc,
> >> on dry weight basis, green leaves have the same nutritional calorific
> >> value as sugar. Therefore, when farmers apply green manure to crops,
> >> they are also feeding the soil microbes. It is recommended by many
> >> sugar factories in India to grow a green manure crop between the rows
> >> of sugarcane, at the time of planting sugarcane, and then to plough
> >> the green manure into the soil at two month stage of the crop.
> >> Analysis of soils before and after this operation showed an almost
> >> doubling of N,P and K in the soil. This increase in NPK did not come
> >> directly from the green matter incorporated into the soil but through
> >> the microbes, which multipled their numbers when they fed on the green
> >> matter and took up minerals directly from the soil. We acknowledge the
> >> fact that the top 10 to 15 cm layer of soil in a field is very
> >> fertile, but we do not call it humus, because the organic content in
> >> our soils is always very low. The fertility of this layer is
> >> contributed by the fact that leaves, animal dung, and other organic
> >> residues fall on top of the soil, where they are decomposed by aerobic
> >> micro-organisms. As I stated above, the microbes multiply their
> >> numbers when provided with any source of organic carbon. In the
> >> process of multiplication, they take up the minerals directly from the
> >> capillary water in the soil. Soil contains an infinite variety of
> >> microbes, and those which are best adapted to that particular soil
> >> condition multiply. If the soil is phosphate deficient, the phosphate
> >> solubilizing bacteria would multiply. If the soil were nitrogen
> >> deficient, the N-fixing microbes would be better able to survive than
> >> the non-fixing ones, and if the soil were saline, the halophytic
> >> microbes would have the upper hand over others. It is plain "survival
> >> of the fittest". After the microbes have exhausted the food, they die
> >> of starvation and release the organo-mineral compounds into the soil,
> >> increasing thereby the soil fertility. The organo-mineral complexes,
> >> such as proteins, enzymes and co-enzymes are soluble in water and they
> >> can be readily taken up by plants. The plants don't care from which
> >> category of microbes they get their minerals. There is no need to
> >> apply chemical fertilizers to the soil. And there is also no need to
> >> apply any special kinds of bacterial cultures to the soil.
> >> Yours
> >> A.D.Karve
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 3:05 PM, Jean-Luc Sallustro
> >> <jean-luc.sallustro at eventure-international.com> wrote:
> >> > Dear Anand,
> >> >
> >> > I am really interested by this vision of sugar nutrient cycle.
> >> > Let me say first that even if I am from Europe, (you are right on this
> >> > point) my group is in Mauritius, and then involved with sugar cane
> >> agronomy
> >> > (or other Poacae)
> >> > Sure that cellulose is a kind of sugar ... but strongly polymerized,
> >> at a
> >> > point that the only bacterial strain enabling its degradation is
> >> aerobic and
> >> > particularly thermophilic.
> >> > Soils macro decomposers such as colemboles or worms alternatively or
> >> > complementary play a role within this decomposition stage of cellulose
> >> and
> >> > hemicellulosis.
> >> > What seems to me of utmost interest in your assessment is that sugar
> >> (I
> >> > assume you are considering raw sugar ?) provides for direct
> >> enhancement of
> >> > soil fertility (when bring with organic N) for the reason that this
> >> > immediately available energy positively stresses bacterial flora (but
> >> which
> >> > strains in particular ?) and then allows the production of mineral
> >> nutrients
> >> > to reach the plants depending on export demands (Poacae are C4 type
> >> and
> >> > therefore strongly dependant from photocycles and water availability).
> >> > The way different +/- polymerized sugars reach the soil is a well
> >> known
> >> > thing, but what's about humus role (even as thin it seems ... there is
> >> > always an upper layer of biomass on the 0 to 15 cm depth of soils),
> >> and what
> >> > is happening as an interaction between microbial activity in this
> >> superior
> >> > soil level, sugar solution (rain fed context) and other N linked
> >> bacterial
> >> > strains ?
> >> > My hypothesis was that there is a risk of demobilisation of these
> >> endemic
> >> > bacterial strains, maybe one can put the question like this "when
> >> stopping
> >> > "sugar feeding" what will happen with organic N, P and K availability
> >> ?"
> >> > All the best
> >> > Jean-Luc
> >> >
> >> > Le lundi 04 juillet 2011 ? 12:11 +0800, Anand Karve a ?crit :
> >> >
> >> > Dear Jean-Luc,
> >> > feeding sugar to the soil microbes is done by the plants themselves.
> >> > The water of guttation of sorghum and safflower contains sugar. All
> >> > the plants that are infested by aphids also drop sugar on the ground
> >> > below their canopy. The leaves that fall on the ground also contain a
> >> > type of sugar (cellulose), In the case of many trees, one finds a
> >> > carpet of fruits underneath their canopy. The fruits contain sugars.
> >> > Chickpea (Cicer arietinum) leaves exude organic acids, which too fall
> >> > on the ground to feed the soil microbes. In India, in the region where
> >> > I live, literally thousands of farmers have taken up the practice of
> >> > applying sugar to the field. For every hectare,they use a mixture of
> >> > 25 kg sugar, 25 kg cattle dung and 25 litres cattle urine. It is
> >> > applied once every three months. In an earlier experiment, I got the
> >> > soil from a non-irrigated and non-fertilized field analysed
> >> > consecutively for 5 years and found that in spite of growing crops on
> >> > this soil, there was no change in the soil composition over this
> >> > period. In India, the agricultural yield is positively correlated with
> >> > the rainfall and not with any other factors like the sale of
> >> > fertilizers, pesticides, hybrid seed, etc. Humus is a typical topic
> >> > raised by European agricultural scientists. Nobody talks of it in
> >> > India, most probably because our soils do not have the humus layer
> >> > that European soils have.
> >> > Yours
> >> > A.D.Karve
> >> > On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 10:52 PM, Jean-Luc Sallustro
> >> > <jean-luc.sallustro at eventure-international.com> wrote:
> >> >> Dear A D Karve
> >> >>
> >> >> For my understanding microbes have an important role in the soil at a
> >> >> stage
> >> >> where endemic proto nutrient are made available for them within the
> >> humic
> >> >> clay complex.
> >> >> This deep stage of macro nutrient (organic NPK) evolution can be
> >> depleted
> >> >> for many reasons such as K sustainable sequestration, unavailability
> >> of
> >> >> macro nutrient, not enough water percolation (soil solubility) etc.
> >> >> Don't you think that one of the risks of depletion in N chain can be
> >> the
> >> >> demobilization of upper soil decomposers due to the fact that
> >> immedialty
> >> >> avalible nutrient are provided (sugar)
> >> >> Regards
> >> >> J-L Sallustro
> >> >>
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Digestion mailing list
> >> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> >> > Digestion at bioenergylists.org
> >> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >> > for more information about digestion, see
> >> > Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> >> > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> >> > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Digestion mailing list
> >> >
> >> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> >> > Digestion at bioenergylists.org
> >> >
> >> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >> >
> >> > for more information about digestion, see
> >> > Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> >> > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> >> > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> > <
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110705/06873915/attachment-0001.html
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Digestion mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > Digestion at bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more information about digestion, see
> > Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
> >
> >
> >
> > End of Digestion Digest, Vol 11, Issue 5
> > ****************************************
> >
>
>
> Melvin S. Finstein, Ph.D.
> Professor Emeritus
> Rutgers University
>
> 105 Carmel Road
> Wheeling, WV 26003
> 304.242.0341
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Digestion mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Digestion at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> for more information about digestion, see
> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>
>
*
*
*
*
*For 200 years we've been conquering Nature. Now we're beating it to
death.
*
* Protect Mother Earth.
*
**
*
*
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110707/ba3b493f/attachment.html>
More information about the Digestion
mailing list