[Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 11, Issue 5

Sun Jul 10 01:19:47 CDT 2011

Dear Kamy,
the green leaves are not a source of sugar but a source of organic
carbon on which the soil microbes can feed. On dry weight basis, a kg
of green leaves has the same calorific value as a kg of sugar. Can you
please explain how the phytoremediation of well water is conducted
with the help of trees? I have no idea of what you are talking about.
Yours
A.D.Karve

On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 3:03 AM, Kamy Melvani <neosynth at sltnet.lk> wrote:
> Dear Dr. Karve,
> I have been following your ideas on the addition of green leaves as a source of sugar to soil in order to increase productivity.
> Could you perhaps explain if the addition of green leaves builds polysaccharides (in humus) in the soil?
> I have just completed the analysis of data related to an experiment in phytoremediation of well water using native species of trees.
> One significant finding is the decrease in electrical conductivity of well water.
> Please let me have your thoughts.
> Thanks and regards,
> Kamy Melvani,
> NEO SYNTHESIS RESEARCH CENTRE,
> SRI LANKA
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 7 Jul 2011, at 08:41, Anand Karve wrote:
>
>> Dear Mel,
>> we used sugar only in some of our lab experiments. On the field we use
>> green leaves. Green leaves, on a dry matter basis, have the same
>> nutritional calories as sugar.
>> Yours
>> A.D.Karve
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 11:09 PM,  <finstein at envsci.rutgers.edu> wrote:
>>> Regarding sugar as a soil amendment:
>>>
>>> Consider the environmental cost of growing cane (or other sugar rich
>>> plant) and that of refining the sugar. Putting aside any supposed benefit,
>>> this should give pause to the "idea" being discussed!
>>>
>>> Mel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>
>>>>    1. Re: Digestate as fertilizer. (Anand Karve)
>>>>    2. Re: Digestate as fertilizer. (Jean-Luc Sallustro)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 1
>>>> Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 11:02:23 +0800
>>>> From: Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com>
>>>> To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
>>>>       <digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestate as fertilizer.
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>       <CACPy7SfafYs8oZk0PHPPSQMQp-hdhKaeKt9-4C0Qg-zSZOnZ0w at mail.gmail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>>
>>>> Dear Jean-Luc,
>>>> on dry weight basis, green leaves have the same nutritional calorific
>>>> value as sugar. Therefore, when farmers apply green manure to crops,
>>>> they are also feeding the soil microbes. It is recommended by many
>>>> sugar factories in India to grow a green manure crop between the rows
>>>> of sugarcane, at the time of planting sugarcane, and then to plough
>>>> the green manure into the soil at two month stage of the crop.
>>>> Analysis of soils before and after this operation showed an almost
>>>> doubling of N,P and K in the soil. This increase in NPK did not come
>>>> directly from the green matter incorporated into the soil but through
>>>> the microbes, which multipled their numbers when they fed on the green
>>>> matter and took up minerals directly from the soil. We acknowledge the
>>>> fact that the top 10 to 15 cm layer of soil in a field is very
>>>> fertile, but we do not call it humus, because the organic content in
>>>> our soils is always very low. The fertility of this layer is
>>>> contributed by the fact that leaves, animal dung, and other organic
>>>> residues fall on top of the soil, where they are decomposed by aerobic
>>>> micro-organisms. As I stated above, the microbes multiply their
>>>> numbers when provided with any source of organic carbon. In the
>>>> process of multiplication, they take up the minerals directly from the
>>>> capillary water in the soil. Soil contains an infinite variety of
>>>> microbes, and those which are best adapted to that particular soil
>>>> condition multiply. If the soil is phosphate deficient, the phosphate
>>>> solubilizing bacteria would multiply. If the soil were nitrogen
>>>> deficient, the N-fixing microbes would be better able to survive than
>>>> the non-fixing ones, and if the soil were saline, the halophytic
>>>> microbes would have the upper hand over others. It is plain "survival
>>>> of the fittest". After the microbes have exhausted the food, they die
>>>> of starvation and release the organo-mineral compounds into the soil,
>>>> increasing thereby the soil fertility. The organo-mineral complexes,
>>>> such as proteins, enzymes and co-enzymes are soluble in water and they
>>>> can be readily taken up by plants. The plants don't care from which
>>>> category of microbes they get their minerals. There is no need to
>>>> apply chemical fertilizers to the soil. And there is also no need to
>>>> apply any special kinds of bacterial cultures to the soil.
>>>> Yours
>>>> A.D.Karve
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 3:05 PM, Jean-Luc Sallustro
>>>> <jean-luc.sallustro at eventure-international.com> wrote:
>>>>> Dear Anand,
>>>>>
>>>>> I am really interested by this vision of sugar nutrient cycle.
>>>>> Let me say first that even if I am from Europe, (you are right on this
>>>>> point) my group is in Mauritius, and then involved with sugar cane
>>>>> agronomy
>>>>> (or other Poacae)
>>>>> Sure that cellulose is a kind of sugar ... but strongly polymerized, at
>>>>> a
>>>>> point that the only bacterial strain enabling its degradation is aerobic
>>>>> and
>>>>> particularly thermophilic.
>>>>> Soils macro decomposers such as colemboles or worms alternatively or
>>>>> complementary play a role within this decomposition stage of cellulose
>>>>> and
>>>>> hemicellulosis.
>>>>> What seems to me of utmost interest in your assessment is that sugar (I
>>>>> assume you are considering raw sugar ?) provides for direct enhancement
>>>>> of
>>>>> soil fertility (when bring with organic N) for the reason that this
>>>>> immediately available energy positively stresses bacterial flora (but
>>>>> which
>>>>> strains in particular ?) and then allows the production of mineral
>>>>> nutrients
>>>>> to reach the plants depending on export demands (Poacae are C4 type and
>>>>> therefore strongly dependant from photocycles and water availability).
>>>>> The way different +/- polymerized sugars reach the soil is a well known
>>>>> thing, but what's about humus role (even as thin it seems ... there is
>>>>> always an upper layer of biomass on the 0 to 15 cm depth of soils), and
>>>>> what
>>>>> is happening as an interaction between microbial activity in this
>>>>> superior
>>>>> soil level, sugar solution (rain fed context) and other N linked
>>>>> bacterial
>>>>> strains ?
>>>>> My hypothesis was that there is a risk of demobilisation of these
>>>>> endemic
>>>>> bacterial strains, maybe one can put the question like this "when
>>>>> stopping
>>>>> "sugar feeding" what will happen with organic N, P and K availability ?"
>>>>> All the best
>>>>> Jean-Luc
>>>>>
>>>>> Le lundi 04 juillet 2011 ? 12:11 +0800, Anand Karve a ?crit :
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Jean-Luc,
>>>>> feeding sugar to the soil microbes is done by the plants themselves.
>>>>> The water of guttation of sorghum and safflower contains sugar. All
>>>>> the plants that are infested by aphids also drop sugar on the ground
>>>>> below their canopy. The leaves that fall on the ground also contain a
>>>>> type of sugar (cellulose), In the case of many trees, one finds a
>>>>> carpet of fruits underneath their canopy. The fruits contain sugars.
>>>>> Chickpea (Cicer arietinum) leaves exude organic acids, which too fall
>>>>> on the ground to feed the soil microbes. In India, in the region where
>>>>> I live, literally thousands of farmers have taken up the practice of
>>>>> applying sugar to the field. For every hectare,they use a mixture of
>>>>> 25 kg sugar, 25 kg cattle dung and 25 litres cattle urine. It is
>>>>> applied once every three months. In an earlier experiment, I got the
>>>>> soil from a non-irrigated and non-fertilized field analysed
>>>>> consecutively for 5 years and found that in spite of growing crops on
>>>>> this soil, there was no change in the soil composition over this
>>>>> period. In India, the agricultural yield is positively correlated with
>>>>> the rainfall and not with any other factors like the sale of
>>>>> fertilizers, pesticides, hybrid seed, etc. Humus is a typical topic
>>>>> raised by European agricultural scientists. Nobody talks of it in
>>>>> India, most probably because our soils do not have the humus layer
>>>>> that European soils have.
>>>>> Yours
>>>>> A.D.Karve
>>>>> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 10:52 PM, Jean-Luc Sallustro
>>>>> <jean-luc.sallustro at eventure-international.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Dear A? D Karve
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For my understanding microbes have an important role in the soil at a
>>>>>> stage
>>>>>> where endemic proto nutrient are made available for them within the
>>>>>> humic
>>>>>> clay complex.
>>>>>> This deep stage of macro nutrient (organic NPK) evolution can be
>>>>>> depleted
>>>>>> for many reasons such as K sustainable sequestration, unavailability of
>>>>>> macro nutrient, not enough water percolation (soil solubility) etc.
>>>>>> Don't you think that one of the risks of depletion in N chain can be
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> demobilization of upper soil decomposers due to the fact that
>>>>>> immedialty
>>>>>> avalible nutrient are provided (sugar)
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>> J-L Sallustro
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Digestion mailing list
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>>>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>>> for more information about digestion, see
>>>>> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>>>>> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>>>>> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Digestion mailing list
>>>>>
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>>>>> Digestion at bioenergylists.org
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>>>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>>>
>>>>> for more information about digestion, see
>>>>> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>>>>> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>>>>> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ***
>>>> Dr. A.D. Karve
>>>> President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
>>>>
>>>> *Please change my email address in your records to: adkarve at gmail.com *
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 2
>>>> Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2011 18:45:16 +0400
>>>> From: Jean-Luc Sallustro
>>>>       <jean-luc.sallustro at eventure-international.com>
>>>> To: digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestate as fertilizer.
>>>> Message-ID: <1309877116.2371.43.camel at laptop-jls>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15"
>>>>
>>>> Dear Anand,
>>>>
>>>> I shall stress on the fact that we, in Mauritius and elsewhere in
>>>> Africa, are fighting against this abusive use of chemical fertilizers.
>>>> This battle is at a point that one of our subsidiary is totally devoted
>>>> to a project which aims at producing organo-mineral fertilizer providing
>>>> that we are supplied with compost and digestats issuing from several
>>>> composting and biodigester plants we are builidng (treatment of poultry
>>>> waste, sugar factory waste and ethanol distillery effluents, hostels
>>>> organic waste ...) Then I totally agree with your assessment regarding
>>>> the fact there is no inescapable need for chemical fertilizer.
>>>> Now, my question was on the use of raw sugar not on the soundness of a
>>>> biofertilization strategy. Once again I would like to stress on the fact
>>>> that "sugar fertilization"  seems to be a very interesting alternative
>>>> to CMS for example.
>>>> Let me rise again the point related to the comparison you make between
>>>> sugar (as a low level polymerised carbonaceous compound) and cellulosis
>>>> and hemicellulosis. For my understanding the very question is here to
>>>> define what we call "organic matter", not in absolute terms of calorific
>>>> value but through an ecological point of view then taking into account
>>>> the complex interaction of microbial strains, macro decomposers,
>>>> chemical role of water as a solvant, chemical role of clay as a substrat
>>>> for H+ ions exchanges etc ... We all know a bit about NPK export from
>>>> soils solutions to plants but it seems to me that we are not enough
>>>> aware about organic matter, and worst about biomass in soils. As an
>>>> example I have raised the fact that sugar will feed a particular class
>>>> of microbes (and maybe other macro biotypes) and that will maybe imply
>>>> that a lot of other bacterial strains will disappear or be weakened
>>>> (celullosis decompostion ones). Do you have some observation to share on
>>>> this point ?
>>>> Best regards
>>>> jean-luc
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Le mardi 05 juillet 2011 ? 11:02 +0800, Anand Karve a ?crit :
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Jean-Luc,
>>>>> on dry weight basis, green leaves have the same nutritional calorific
>>>>> value as sugar. Therefore, when farmers apply green manure to crops,
>>>>> they are also feeding the soil microbes. It is recommended by many
>>>>> sugar factories in India to grow a green manure crop between the rows
>>>>> of sugarcane, at the time of planting sugarcane, and then to plough
>>>>> the green manure into the soil at two month stage of the crop.
>>>>> Analysis of soils before and after this operation showed an almost
>>>>> doubling of N,P and K in the soil. This increase in NPK did not come
>>>>> directly from the green matter incorporated into the soil but through
>>>>> the microbes, which multipled their numbers when they fed on the green
>>>>> matter and took up minerals directly from the soil. We acknowledge the
>>>>> fact that the top 10 to 15 cm layer of soil in a field is very
>>>>> fertile, but we do not call it humus, because the organic content in
>>>>> our soils is always very low. The fertility of this layer is
>>>>> contributed by the fact that leaves, animal dung, and other organic
>>>>> residues fall on top of the soil, where they are decomposed by aerobic
>>>>> micro-organisms. As I stated above, the microbes multiply their
>>>>> numbers when provided with any source of organic carbon. In the
>>>>> process of multiplication, they take up the minerals directly from the
>>>>> capillary water in the soil. Soil contains an infinite variety of
>>>>> microbes, and those which are best adapted to that particular soil
>>>>> condition multiply. If the soil is phosphate deficient, the phosphate
>>>>> solubilizing bacteria would multiply. If the soil were nitrogen
>>>>> deficient, the N-fixing microbes would be better able to survive than
>>>>> the non-fixing ones, and if the soil were saline, the halophytic
>>>>> microbes would have the upper hand over others. It is plain "survival
>>>>> of the fittest". After the microbes have exhausted the food, they die
>>>>> of starvation and release the organo-mineral compounds into the soil,
>>>>> increasing thereby the soil fertility. The organo-mineral complexes,
>>>>> such as proteins, enzymes and co-enzymes are soluble in water and they
>>>>> can be readily taken up by plants. The plants don't care from which
>>>>> category of microbes they get their minerals. There is no need to
>>>>> apply chemical fertilizers to the soil. And there is also no need to
>>>>> apply any special kinds of bacterial cultures to the soil.
>>>>> Yours
>>>>> A.D.Karve
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 3:05 PM, Jean-Luc Sallustro
>>>>> <jean-luc.sallustro at eventure-international.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Dear Anand,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am really interested by this vision of sugar nutrient cycle.
>>>>>> Let me say first that even if I am from Europe, (you are right on this
>>>>>> point) my group is in Mauritius, and then involved with sugar cane
>>>>> agronomy
>>>>>> (or other Poacae)
>>>>>> Sure that cellulose is a kind of sugar ... but strongly polymerized,
>>>>> at a
>>>>>> point that the only bacterial strain enabling its degradation is
>>>>> aerobic and
>>>>>> particularly thermophilic.
>>>>>> Soils macro decomposers such as colemboles or worms alternatively or
>>>>>> complementary play a role within this decomposition stage of cellulose
>>>>> and
>>>>>> hemicellulosis.
>>>>>> What seems to me of utmost interest in your assessment is that sugar
>>>>> (I
>>>>>> assume you are considering raw sugar ?) provides for direct
>>>>> enhancement of
>>>>>> soil fertility (when bring with organic N) for the reason that this
>>>>>> immediately available energy positively stresses bacterial flora (but
>>>>> which
>>>>>> strains in particular ?) and then allows the production of mineral
>>>>> nutrients
>>>>>> to reach the plants depending on export demands (Poacae are C4 type
>>>>> and
>>>>>> therefore strongly dependant from photocycles and water availability).
>>>>>> The way different +/- polymerized sugars reach the soil is a well
>>>>> known
>>>>>> thing, but what's about humus role (even as thin it seems ... there is
>>>>>> always an upper layer of biomass on the 0 to 15 cm depth of soils),
>>>>> and what
>>>>>> is happening as an interaction between microbial activity in this
>>>>> superior
>>>>>> soil level, sugar solution (rain fed context) and other N linked
>>>>> bacterial
>>>>>> strains ?
>>>>>> My hypothesis was that there is a risk of demobilisation of these
>>>>> endemic
>>>>>> bacterial strains, maybe one can put the question like this "when
>>>>> stopping
>>>>>> "sugar feeding" what will happen with organic N, P and K availability
>>>>> ?"
>>>>>> All the best
>>>>>> Jean-Luc
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Le lundi 04 juillet 2011 ? 12:11 +0800, Anand Karve a ?crit :
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Jean-Luc,
>>>>>> feeding sugar to the soil microbes is done by the plants themselves.
>>>>>> The water of guttation of sorghum and safflower contains sugar. All
>>>>>> the plants that are infested by aphids also drop sugar on the ground
>>>>>> below their canopy. The leaves that fall on the ground also contain a
>>>>>> type of sugar (cellulose), In the case of many trees, one finds a
>>>>>> carpet of fruits underneath their canopy. The fruits contain sugars.
>>>>>> Chickpea (Cicer arietinum) leaves exude organic acids, which too fall
>>>>>> on the ground to feed the soil microbes. In India, in the region where
>>>>>> I live, literally thousands of farmers have taken up the practice of
>>>>>> applying sugar to the field. For every hectare,they use a mixture of
>>>>>> 25 kg sugar, 25 kg cattle dung and 25 litres cattle urine. It is
>>>>>> applied once every three months. In an earlier experiment, I got the
>>>>>> soil from a non-irrigated and non-fertilized field analysed
>>>>>> consecutively for 5 years and found that in spite of growing crops on
>>>>>> this soil, there was no change in the soil composition over this
>>>>>> period. In India, the agricultural yield is positively correlated with
>>>>>> the rainfall and not with any other factors like the sale of
>>>>>> fertilizers, pesticides, hybrid seed, etc. Humus is a typical topic
>>>>>> raised by European agricultural scientists. Nobody talks of it in
>>>>>> India, most probably because our soils do not have the humus layer
>>>>>> that European soils have.
>>>>>> Yours
>>>>>> A.D.Karve
>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 10:52 PM, Jean-Luc Sallustro
>>>>>> <jean-luc.sallustro at eventure-international.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Dear A  D Karve
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For my understanding microbes have an important role in the soil at a
>>>>>>> stage
>>>>>>> where endemic proto nutrient are made available for them within the
>>>>> humic
>>>>>>> clay complex.
>>>>>>> This deep stage of macro nutrient (organic NPK) evolution can be
>>>>> depleted
>>>>>>> for many reasons such as K sustainable sequestration, unavailability
>>>>> of
>>>>>>> macro nutrient, not enough water percolation (soil solubility) etc.
>>>>>>> Don't you think that one of the risks of depletion in N chain can be
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> demobilization of upper soil decomposers due to the fact that
>>>>> immedialty
>>>>>>> avalible nutrient are provided (sugar)
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>> J-L Sallustro
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Digestion mailing list
>>>>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>>>>> Digestion at bioenergylists.org
>>>>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>>>> for more information about digestion, see
>>>>>> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>>>>>> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>>>>>> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Digestion mailing list
>>>>>>
>>>>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>>>>> Digestion at bioenergylists.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> for more information about digestion, see
>>>>>> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>>>>>> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>>>>>> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Digestion mailing list
>>>>
>>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>>
>>>> for more information about digestion, see
>>>> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>>>> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>>>> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> End of Digestion Digest, Vol 11, Issue 5
>>>> ****************************************
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Melvin S. Finstein, Ph.D.
>>> Professor Emeritus
>>> Rutgers University
>>>
>>> 105 Carmel Road
>>> Wheeling, WV 26003
>>> 304.242.0341
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Digestion mailing list
>>>
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>> Digestion at bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> for more information about digestion, see
>>> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>>> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>>> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ***
>> Dr. A.D. Karve
>> President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
>>
>> *Please change my email address in your records to: adkarve at gmail.com *
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Digestion mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Digestion at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> for more information about digestion, see
>> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Digestion mailing list
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>
> for more information about digestion, see
> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>
>

-- 
***
Dr. A.D. Karve
President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)

*Please change my email address in your records to: adkarve at gmail.com *