<div>Dear Duncan,</div>
<div>Thank you for closing this long standing argument. Thank you finally for not supporting the blemishing of the weidely known facts and thoughtfully srcipted books about Biogas. I agree that certain facts are missing and may provide a link to other truths. However, what is most important is that you specifically lay these points with clear references to the points in the books that you disagree. </div>
<div>Thanks again </div>
<div>Sumedh Bapat <br><br></div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 12:30 AM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org">digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">Send Digestion mailing list submissions to<br> <a href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org">digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br> <a href="mailto:digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org">digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>You can reach the person managing the list at<br>
<a href="mailto:digestion-owner@lists.bioenergylists.org">digestion-owner@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>than "Re: Contents of Digestion digest..."<br>
<br><br>Today's Topics:<br><br> 1. Re: Attachment to previous Article - More scientific based<br> research and questions (Duncan Martin)<br><br><br>----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>Message: 1<br>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 08:53:27 +0100<br>From: Duncan Martin <<a href="mailto:duncanjmartin@gmail.com">duncanjmartin@gmail.com</a>><br>To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion<br> <<a href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org">digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Digestion] Attachment to previous Article - More<br> scientific based research and questions<br>Message-ID:<br> <<a href="mailto:AANLkTimX7cyetVk99Wjvvh5uTKs-3NBVDSV-CNDskWVc@mail.gmail.com">AANLkTimX7cyetVk99Wjvvh5uTKs-3NBVDSV-CNDskWVc@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br><br>Perhaps Dr Karve & I should agree to disagree?<br><br>To argue that dung is not food for the methanogens because they need help to<br>digest it is really a semantic quibble. It misses the point I was responding<br>
to - that the digestion process is not *completed *by the act of<br>defaecation, it is merely *terminated* for the owner of the gut in question.<br><br>I have never seen any serious literature suggesting that microbes are<br>
altruistic. However, the principles of commensalism are well established and<br>I see no basis for dismissing them. Moreover, the complex web of metabolic<br>interactions in AD has been extensively researched and is pretty well<br>
understood - though I am sure there is more to discover.<br><br>Nor have I seen any literature whatsoever suggesting that the methanogens<br>consume other microorganisms. I would be intrigued to see a proposed<br>mechanism.<br>
<br>To dismiss all the textbooks as wrong (see previous postings) is unhelpful,<br>at best. Who could only say that unless he had read every one of them? Of<br>course, there are mistakes - even in the best books - if only because<br>
science moves on, so any book becomes outdated. And there are indeed some<br>layman's guides to AD that include some odd ideas - but who would take them<br>as serious guides to the science?<br><br>When we find such errors, let us use this forum to report them - giving<br>
exact references. But lets not confuse newcomers to the field by dismissing<br>every other source of information as rubbish.<br><br>Finally, let us accept that each of us is entitled to his opinion - but lets<br>reserve this forum for the fruits of practical experience and evidence-based<br>
information.<br><br>I suggest we draw a line under the present debate.<br><br>Duncan Martin, PhD, MCIWM, MIChemE, MIEI<br>Cloughjordan Ecovillage<br>Ireland<br><br>On 17 October 2010 16:39, Anand Karve <<a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">adkarve@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>> Dear Duncan,<br>> I dont believe in the theory of a chain of micro-organisms, with one<br>> species converting the cellulose into glucose, another converting the<br>> glucose into an organic acid (e.g. citric acid), still another converting<br>
> the organic acid into acetic acid and ultimately the acetic acid being<br>> converted by the methanogenic organisms into carbon dioxide and methane. If<br>> this were true, one would have by now isolated the organism that converted<br>
> cellulose into glucose and used the glucose to produce alcohol. Cellulose is<br>> the most ubiquitously found organic compount in the world and with this<br>> simple process, one would have produced unlimited quantity of liquid fuel.<br>
> But even today, the conversion of cellulose into glucose is achieved in any<br>> industrial process by using a cellulolytic enzyme extracted from a<br>> cellulolytic organism. The reason for this is, that the glucose converted by<br>
> the organism from cellulose is consumed by the same organism. And once it is<br>> consumed by an organism, it is converted into its cell all the way down to<br>> carbon dioxide. The micro-organisms in the gut of an animal cannot be<br>
> expected to be so altruistic as to predigest the food and suply it to the<br>> methanogens. I feel that the methanogenic organisms consume the fellow<br>> micro-organisms in the gut of animals and digest them to produce methane and<br>
> carbon dioxide. Such dog-eat-dog reactions occur also in the soil supplied<br>> with organic matter.<br>> In any case, once it is accepted that the methanogenic organisms do<br>> not digest the dung directly and that they need the help of other organisms<br>
> to digest it, one cannot accept that dung is the food of the methanogens. It<br>> is like saying that manure applied to a field is human food, because through<br>> a number of biological processes it ultimately ends up into products, which<br>
> the humans eat.<br>> Yours<br>> A.D.Karve<br>> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Duncan Martin <<a href="mailto:duncanjmartin@gmail.com">duncanjmartin@gmail.com</a>>wrote:<br>><br>>><br>>> Yes, the gut methanogens do, in a sense, eat what the animal eats.<br>
>> However, it would be more accurate to say that their diet is derived from<br>>> what the animal eats. The methanogens in the gut of a cow are surrounded by<br>>> celluose and other biopolymers but they cannot digest them. They live on the<br>
>> waste products of other microbial processes. The web of metabolic<br>>> interactions is well known.<br>>><br>>> Where I would "hoot out" Dr Karve is his belief that dung cannot serve as<br>
>> food for the methanogens because they are "thrown out" of the body along<br>>> with the dung. I don't understand the logic here.<br>>><br>>><br>>><br>> _______________________________________________<br>
> Digestion mailing list<br>><br>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>> <a href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a><br>><br>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
><br>> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>><br>
> for more information about digestion, see<br>> Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br>> <a href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/" target="_blank">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br>> and the Biogas Wiki <a href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/" target="_blank">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br>
><br>><br>><br>-------------- next part --------------<br>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>URL: <<a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20101018/f968a6bd/attachment-0001.html" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20101018/f968a6bd/attachment-0001.html</a>><br>
<br>------------------------------<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Digestion mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>for more information about digestion, see<br>Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br><a href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/" target="_blank">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br>and the Biogas Wiki <a href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/" target="_blank">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br>
<br><br><br>End of Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 36<br>****************************************<br></blockquote></div><br>