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Hi,<br>
<br>
I still don't believe in those 540 m³ from 1000 kg dung. Since we
only just know it "fresh dung", let's try to get a backwards look at
it:<br>
<br>
Let's say we have 540 m³ biogas (dry gas, 0°C, 1013 mbar like
literature values in german tables, if we want to compare this to
values given in those tables).<br>
<br>
Let's say we have 60% methane, 40% carbon dioxide (here it doesn't
matter anyway: it's not relevant if a C is in CH4 or in CO2)<br>
<br>
So in those 540m³ would be 24,1 kmole C.<br>
This corresponds to a mass of about 289 kg.<br>
Considering a C-Content of 43% TS this would lead to a 673 kg fresh
matter.<br>
Much to dry for anaerobic digestion.<br>
And this estimation is already done considering ALL of the C from
the substrate (even including all lignin) would be in the biogas.
(In own investigations ~30% of dung material is degradable)<br>
<br>
Please correct me, if you find an error.<br>
<br>
In comparison in literature tables (e.g. FNR(2004)) is given:<br>
cattle liquid manure, TS 8-11%, VS 75-82 %TS, gas yield: 20-30m³ per
t fresh matter, 200-500m³ per t VS, 60% CH4<br>
cattle (dry) manure, TS ~25%, VS 68-67 %TS, gas yield: 40-50m³ per t
fresh matter, 210-300m³ per t VS, 60% CH4<br>
this seems reasonable.<br>
<br>
Also the values given by Klaus Peter Hankel in his post today fit
into those values:<br>
<pre wrap="">indian bovine manure: 18% DS, 83% vDS, 300 l biogas/kgvDS, 60% CH4
</pre>
Since those 540m³ come from a batch digestion, I believe that
there's a higher gas yield per VS than in semi-continuous digestion,
since there is a long period with no addition od fresh, easily
degradable matter. So bacteria have the decision: "starve" or "eat
lignin" :).<br>
I also made this experience in own investigations of higher
degredation of fibers, but I don't think this effect is that big,
even if the digestion process is performed over 180 days (see
estimation of C above).<br>
<br>
If you should come across the original presentation again, please
let me know. I would be interested in the original values and the
return of investment calculations.<br>
<br>
And coming back to P. Hankel's values (lets assume 1000 kg fresh
matter):<br>
1000 kg fresh matter<br>
180 kg dry matter<br>
77,4 kg C (assuming my value of 43%TS as given above)<br>
149,4 kg volatile solids<br>
with 300 l/kg VS leading to a total gas of 44,8 m³ (in the range of
literature values given above)<br>
44,8 m³ Biogas corresponds to 24 kg C in the gas<br>
24 kg in the gas is about 31% of C in the substrate (so this would
confirm my above value of about 30% degradation of dung material)<br>
So these values make a perfect sense to me.<br>
<br>
<br>
Best regards<br>
Markus Schlattmann<br>
<br>
<br>
Am 25.10.2010 16:42, schrieb Anand Karve:
<blockquote
cite="mid:AANLkTikxY1Uo5_kY3zsMjvic-sMUxK5cv=DtTGvNQ5iO@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Context-Type" content="text/html;
charset=ISO-8859-1">
<div>Dear Markus,</div>
<div>it was the weight of fresh dung. Apparently, the system that
I saw in Wardha was new to me, but not new in India.
There already exists a commercial firm, which constructs similar
systems. A colleague of mine showed me a recorded presentation
of theirs. The presentation contains photographs of the system,
tables showing return on investment, and data of biogas
production. Their claims match those made by Centre of Science
for Villages in Wardha. Dung contains enough carbon, but it is
mainly in the form of lignin. Unless one assumes that somehow
the lignin in the dung gets converted into biogas, one cannot
explain the high biogas yield. </div>
<div>Yours</div>
<div>A.D.Karve<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 4:57 PM, Markus Schlattmann <span><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:firmen@schlattmann.de">firmen@schlattmann.de</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote>
<div>Hi,<br>
<br>
when you compare the yields based on fresh mass, are you
sure you're talking about the same "dung"?<br>
<br>
Here in Central Europe cattle often are kept in stables
leading to liquid (~8%TS) manure. <br>
In India perhaps "dung" is "dried dung"?<br>
Generally, for comapring gas yields of substrates it's
better to compare gas yields based on VS, not fresh matter,
since water content may vary a lot.<br>
<br>
I can't think that there's a production of 18 times more
biogas if we are talking about comparable dung. You may
calculate/estimate a C-Balance. If there's one loading, you
can't get more C in CH4/CO2 out of the system than you have
put into it with the substrate/inoculum in the beginning.<br>
<br>
Markus Schlattmann<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Am 24.10.2010 11:31, schrieb Anand Karve:
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Dear Mr. Bapat,</div>
<div>the biogas plant in Wardha, which accepts 1000 kg
cattle dung as a one-time load and produces daily 3
cubic meter biogas continuously over a period of 180
days, was an absolutely novel system to me. In fact that
is why I reported it, because I felt that somebody in
the AD discussion group maight know more about it. Since
neither the British scientists nor any of the Indian
scientists present there could give a scientific
explanation to this phenomenon, I have ventured a
plausible explanation. The Archaea are a very ancient
group of organisms. Lignin is produced by green plants,
which evolved much later. Therefore the methanogens
cannot digest lignin. The fact that in Wardha, this
particular biogas plant was producing almost 18 times as
much biogas as would be expected, can be explained by
the assumption that lignin was being digested by some
other organisms and the products of the lignin digesting
organisms were being made available to the
mehanogens. But the speculation that some species of
organisms conduct extra-cellular digestion of cellulose
or lignin, and make the products of such digestion
available to the methanogens, is not acceptable to me,
because if such were really the case, one would have
used such organisms to produce sugars from
lignocellulosic material and then obtained alcohol from
these sugars. Since nobody has succeeded in doing
this, I feel that the organisms that digest cellulose or
lignin consume the sugars themselves and multiply their
own numbers, and that the methanogens consume these
microbes to produce methane. I am ready to accept any
other explanation, if it is logical. </div>
<div>Yours</div>
<div>A.D.Karve<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 4:37 PM, Sumedh Bapat <span><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sumedh.bapat@gmail.com">sumedh.bapat@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote>
<div>Dear Dr. Karve,</div>
<div>I am sorry to comment on this again but I cannot
overlook the discrepancy in the information you have
provided here..</div>
<div> </div>
<div><strong><em> on October 17 you said : </em></strong></div>
<div>"In any case, once it is accepted that the
methanogenic organisms do not digest the dung
directly and that they need the help of other
organisms to digest it, one cannot accept that dung
is the food of the methanogens. It is like saying
that manure applied to a field is human food,
because through a number of biological processes it
ultimately ends up into products, which the humans
eat." </div>
<div> </div>
<div><strong><em>on October 24 you said : </em></strong></div>
<div>"According to text book knowledge, 1000 kg dung
should have produced about 30,000 litres (or 30
cubic meters) biogas. But this particular biogas
plant produces 540 cubic meters of it." </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I also happen to notice that both the subjects
refer to cow dung. Now it can be seen that you claim
that some other plant is generating 540 times more
gas than your plants.</div>
<div>Do you mean that this 540 m3 gas that you saw, is
produced by Methanogens which have consumed other
similar organisms from the biogas plant , which in
turn had "eaten" the Cpw Dung ?</div>
<div>Can you please explain the sudden Biogas
Generation manifold increase from 30 m3
(conventionally known) to 540 m3 ?<br>
<em>Again</em> _ Can you please provide a basis for
such a finding ?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Kind Regards,</div>
<div>Sumedh Bapat</div>
<div><br>
</div>
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Today's Topics:<br>
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1. Re: Attachment to previous Article - More
scientific based<br>
research and questions (Anand Karve)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 02:43:13 +0800<br>
From: Anand Karve <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">adkarve@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion<br>
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org">digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Digestion] Attachment to previous
Article - More<br>
scientific based research and questions<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<AANLkTi=qxog1xd-4Q9JOwVaNpL8S=Bgpc2n=JxY7R5a=@<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://mail.gmail.com/">mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
Dear Dr. Martin,<br>
I have just returned from a city called Wardha,
where I attended a workshop<br>
arranged jointly by the Research Councils of UK
and the Department of<br>
Science and Technology, Government of India. About
20 scientists each from<br>
UK and India were invited to this meeting.<br>
In the course of field visits organised during the
workshop, Dr. Soham<br>
Pandya, The Director of Centre of Science for
Villages, an NGO in Wardha,<br>
showed us an amazing biogas plant on his campus.
This biogas plant accepts<br>
about 1000 kg cattle dung as a one-time load and
produces daily about 3<br>
cubic meters of biogas, continuously over a period
of about 180 days. This<br>
is not the only biogas plant constructed by him.
Using funds from the<br>
Department of Science and Technology, He has
constructed a similar biogas<br>
plant in another place called Hingoli, where a
one-time load of 1000 kg<br>
dung yields biogas continuously for 6 months, to
run an electricity<br>
generator for daily 3 to 4 hours, to provide
electric lighting to all the<br>
houses in the village. Officials of the
Department of Science and<br>
Technology vouched for the veracity of these
claims. According to text book<br>
knowledge, 1000 kg dung should have produced about
30,000 litres (or 30<br>
cubic meters) biogas. But this particular biogas
plant produces 540 cubic<br>
meters of it.<br>
Neither Dr. Pandya nor any other scientist could
give a<br>
scientific explanation to this phenomenally high
yield of biogas. Dung of<br>
Indian cattle consists mainly of lignin (from the
veins and midribs of the<br>
grass and leaves that they feed on) and
micro-organisms. One has to assume<br>
in this case, that there are microbes in the dung
that feed on the lignin<br>
and that the methanogens digested the lignin
eating microbes.<br>
Yours<br>
A.D.Karve<br>
<br>
On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 3:53 PM, Duncan Martin
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:duncanjmartin@gmail.com">duncanjmartin@gmail.com</a>>wrote:<br>
<br>
> Perhaps Dr Karve & I should agree to
disagree?<br>
><br>
> To argue that dung is not food for the
methanogens because they need help<br>
> to digest it is really a semantic quibble. It
misses the point I was<br>
> responding to - that the digestion process is
not *completed *by the act<br>
> of defaecation, it is merely *terminated* for
the owner of the gut in<br>
> question.<br>
><br>
> I have never seen any serious literature
suggesting that microbes are<br>
> altruistic. However, the principles of
commensalism are well established and<br>
> I see no basis for dismissing them. Moreover,
the complex web of metabolic<br>
> interactions in AD has been extensively
researched and is pretty well<br>
> understood - though I am sure there is more
to discover.<br>
><br>
> Nor have I seen any literature whatsoever
suggesting that the methanogens<br>
> consume other microorganisms. I would be
intrigued to see a proposed<br>
> mechanism.<br>
><br>
> To dismiss all the textbooks as wrong (see
previous postings) is unhelpful,<br>
> at best. Who could only say that unless he
had read every one of them? Of<br>
> course, there are mistakes - even in the best
books - if only because<br>
> science moves on, so any book becomes
outdated. And there are indeed some<br>
> layman's guides to AD that include some odd
ideas - but who would take them<br>
> as serious guides to the science?<br>
><br>
> When we find such errors, let us use this
forum to report them - giving<br>
> exact references. But lets not confuse
newcomers to the field by dismissing<br>
> every other source of information as rubbish.<br>
><br>
> Finally, let us accept that each of us is
entitled to his opinion - but<br>
> lets reserve this forum for the fruits of
practical experience and<br>
> evidence-based information.<br>
><br>
> I suggest we draw a line under the present
debate.<br>
><br>
> Duncan Martin, PhD, MCIWM, MIChemE, MIEI<br>
> Cloughjordan Ecovillage<br>
> Ireland<br>
><br>
> On 17 October 2010 16:39, Anand Karve <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">adkarve@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Dear Duncan,<br>
>> I dont believe in the theory of a chain
of micro-organisms, with one<br>
>> species converting the cellulose into
glucose, another converting the<br>
>> glucose into an organic acid (e.g. citric
acid), still another converting<br>
>> the organic acid into acetic acid and
ultimately the acetic acid being<br>
>> converted by the methanogenic organisms
into carbon dioxide and methane. If<br>
>> this were true, one would have by now
isolated the organism that converted<br>
>> cellulose into glucose and used the
glucose to produce alcohol. Cellulose is<br>
>> the most ubiquitously found organic
compount in the world and with this<br>
>> simple process, one would have produced
unlimited quantity of liquid fuel.<br>
>> But even today, the conversion of
cellulose into glucose is achieved in any<br>
>> industrial process by using a
cellulolytic enzyme extracted from a<br>
>> cellulolytic organism. The reason for
this is, that the glucose converted by<br>
>> the organism from cellulose is consumed
by the same organism. And once it is<br>
>> consumed by an organism, it is converted
into its cell all the way down to<br>
>> carbon dioxide. The micro-organisms in
the gut of an animal cannot be<br>
>> expected to be so altruistic as to
predigest the food and suply it to the<br>
>> methanogens. I feel that the methanogenic
organisms consume the fellow<br>
>> micro-organisms in the gut of animals and
digest them to produce methane and<br>
>> carbon dioxide. Such dog-eat-dog
reactions occur also in the soil supplied<br>
>> with organic matter.<br>
>> In any case, once it is accepted
that the methanogenic organisms<br>
>> do not digest the dung directly and that
they need the help of other<br>
>> organisms to digest it, one cannot accept
that dung is the food of the<br>
>> methanogens. It is like saying that
manure applied to a field is human food,<br>
>> because through a number of biological
processes it ultimately ends up into<br>
>> products, which the humans eat.<br>
>> Yours<br>
>> A.D.Karve<br>
>> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Duncan
Martin <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:duncanjmartin@gmail.com">duncanjmartin@gmail.com</a><br>
>> > wrote:<br>
>><br>
>>><br>
>>> Yes, the gut methanogens do, in a
sense, eat what the animal eats.<br>
>>> However, it would be more accurate to
say that their diet is derived from<br>
>>> what the animal eats. The methanogens
in the gut of a cow are surrounded by<br>
>>> celluose and other biopolymers but
they cannot digest them. They live on the<br>
>>> waste products of other microbial
processes. The web of metabolic<br>
>>> interactions is well known.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Where I would "hoot out" Dr Karve is
his belief that dung cannot serve as<br>
>>> food for the methanogens because they
are "thrown out" of the body along<br>
>>> with the dung. I don't understand the
logic here.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>
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>><br>
>> for more information about digestion, see<br>
>> Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br>
>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br>
>> and the Biogas Wiki <a
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href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
><br>
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><br>
> for more information about digestion, see<br>
> Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br>
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><br>
><br>
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--<br>
***<br>
Dr. A.D. Karve<br>
President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute
(ARTI)<br>
<br>
*Please change my email address in your records
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</blockquote>
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<br>
<br>
-- <br>
***<br>
Dr. A.D. Karve<br>
President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)<br>
<br>
*Please change my email address in your records to: <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">adkarve@gmail.com</a>
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<pre>
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<pre>--
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Markus Schlattmann
--------------------------------------
schlattmann sustainables
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://schlattmann.de/">schlattmann.de</a>
Dipl.-Ing. agr. Markus Schlattmann
Grünseiboldsdorfer Weg 5
85416 Langenbach
Tel.: +49 (0)8761 72162-60
Fax.: +49 (0)8761 72162-61
E-Mail: firmen@schlattmann de
Web:<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.schlattmann.de/">www.schlattmann.de</a>
-------------------------------------
Die Informationen in dieser E-Mail und im Anhang sind vertraulich und
nur für den/die benannten Empfänger bestimmt. Öffnen, Nutzen oder
Verbreiten durch unautorisierte Personen ist untersagt. Falls Sie nicht
der Empfänger oder eine entsprechend autorisierte Person sind,
informieren Sie bitte den Absender und vernichten Sie die Nachricht.
The information in this email and in any attachment is confidential and
intended only for the attention and use of the recipient(s) as
addressed. It must not be disclosed, used or disseminated by any
unauthorized person. If you are not the intended recipient or
accordingly authorized, please contact the sender and delete the
message.
</pre>
</div>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Digestion mailing list<br>
<br>
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
for more information about digestion, see<br>
Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br>
and the Biogas Wiki <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
***<br>
Dr. A.D. Karve<br>
President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)<br>
<br>
*Please change my email address in your records to: <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">adkarve@gmail.com</a>
*<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<pre wrap="">
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
_______________________________________________
Digestion mailing list
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
for more information about digestion, see
Beginner's Guide to Biogas
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a>
and the Biogas Wiki <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Markus Schlattmann
--------------------------------------
schlattmann sustainables
schlattmann.de
Dipl.-Ing. agr. Markus Schlattmann
Grünseiboldsdorfer Weg 5
85416 Langenbach
Tel.: +49 (0)8761 72162-60
Fax.: +49 (0)8761 72162-61
E-Mail: firmen@schlattmann de
Web:www.schlattmann.de
-------------------------------------
Die Informationen in dieser E-Mail und im Anhang sind vertraulich und
nur für den/die benannten Empfänger bestimmt. Öffnen, Nutzen oder
Verbreiten durch unautorisierte Personen ist untersagt. Falls Sie nicht
der Empfänger oder eine entsprechend autorisierte Person sind,
informieren Sie bitte den Absender und vernichten Sie die Nachricht.
The information in this email and in any attachment is confidential and
intended only for the attention and use of the recipient(s) as
addressed. It must not be disclosed, used or disseminated by any
unauthorized person. If you are not the intended recipient or
accordingly authorized, please contact the sender and delete the
message.
</pre>
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