<div class="gmail_quote"> In both the cases, the gas is collected in a moving drum type gas holder, which allows easy measurement of biogas. </div>
<div class="gmail_quote">Yours</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">A.D.Karve</div>
<div class="gmail_quote"> </div>
<div class="gmail_quote"> </div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 8:09 PM, Sumedh Bapat <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sumedh.bapat@gmail.com">sumedh.bapat@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div>dear dr. Karve,</div>
<div>Thank you for your attempt at explaining your own findings. They seem more of confusions to me now. Just a last few questions.</div>
<ul>
<li>What is the method that is used to measure the produced gas in your plants & in the plant in wardha ?</li></ul>
<div>Thank you,</div>
<div>Sumedh Bapat</div>
<div><br><br></div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 12:30 AM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">Send Digestion mailing list submissions to<br> <a href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
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<br>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br> <a href="mailto:digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>You can reach the person managing the list at<br>
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<br><br>Today's Topics:<br><br> 1. Re: Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 31 (Anand Karve)<br> 2. Re: Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40 (Sumedh Bapat)<br> 3. Re: Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40 (Anand Karve)<br><br><br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br><br>Message: 1<br>Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 12:58:18 +0800<br>From: Anand Karve <<a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com" target="_blank">adkarve@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion<br> <<a href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 31<br>
Message-ID:<br> <<a href="mailto:AANLkTimtM04PxpfV95kwhr%2BvtbwO0fqLgbF0m6R9JxFm@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">AANLkTimtM04PxpfV95kwhr+vtbwO0fqLgbF0m6R9JxFm@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>Dear Mr. Oliviera,<br>there is a positive correlation between the population density of microbes<br>in the soil and soil fertility. Therefore, application of any biodegradable<br>organic material to the soil causes the microbes in the soil to multiply. In<br>
the process of multiplication, they absorb minerals from the soil. The<br>textbooks say that they cannot absorb minerals from the soil, because the<br>soil minerals are insoluble, but that is not true. Water is a universal<br>
solvent, and the capillary water in the soil always contains all the soil<br>minerals dissolved in it, albeit in a very small concentration, which can be<br>measured only in P.P.M. or P.P.B. If you applied pure sugar to the soil, the<br>
soil microbes increase their numbers 500 to 1000 times within 24 hours.This<br>shows that the microbes can take up minerals from the capillary water in the<br>soil. The minerals sequestered in their cells are now in the form of<br>
proteins, co-enzymes etc,.which are highly water soluble. When the organic<br>matter has been exhausted, the microbes die of starvation, and when their<br>cells lyse, the minerals released in the soil are taken up by plants. Thus,<br>
even a relatively small quantity of high calorie organic matter applied to<br>the soil can lead to an increase in the soil fertility. Literally thousands<br>of farmers in Maharashtra state in India are nowadays following this tactic.<br>
They apply to their field just 25 kg sugar per acre, once every three<br>months, and no other chemical fertilizer or organic manure. And yet they get<br>very high yield from their crops, equivalent to the yield that they used to<br>
obtain by applying costly chemical fertilizers.<br>Yours<br>A.D.Karve<br>On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 6:18 AM, Ivo Oliveira <<a href="mailto:ivomdb@gmail.com" target="_blank">ivomdb@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br>> Hello,<br>
><br>> I've been reading a couple of documents about vermicompost and digester<br>> effluent aplication to different crops. For exemple: Vegetables (carrot,<br>> spinach, onions etc), Fruits and maize. For instance when applying digester<br>
> effluent to vegetables 100 l per hectare (of a total 300 l mixed with water<br>> on a 1:3 ratio) should be added every 10 days. It seems quite small....<br>> However I found in other articles that you can apply raw digester effluent<br>
> without dilution but doesn't say the amounts that should be added.<br>><br>> Using Vermicompost the information seems more available but still not sure.<br>> For example I found that you can apply 120 g of vermicompost/ plant (crop)<br>
> or 60 g or 10 g to vegetables.....<br>><br>> So... the information available is some what diverse. I wonder if someone<br>> could share his knowledge when using digester effluent or vermicompost as an<br>> organic fertilizer.<br>
><br>> Thanks,<br>> Ivo Oliveira<br>><br>><br>> On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 12:00 PM, <<br>> <a href="mailto:digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>>> Send Digestion mailing list submissions to<br>>> <a href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>>><br>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br>
>><br>>> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>><br>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br>>> <a href="mailto:digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>><br>>> You can reach the person managing the list at<br>>> <a href="mailto:digestion-owner@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">digestion-owner@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>>><br>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>
>> than "Re: Contents of Digestion digest..."<br>>><br>>><br>>> Today's Topics:<br>>><br>>> 1. Re: Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 29 (David Fulford)<br>>><br>>><br>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>>><br>>> Message: 1<br>>> Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 11:21:31 +0100<br>>> From: David Fulford <<a href="mailto:davidf@kingdombio.com" target="_blank">davidf@kingdombio.com</a>><br>
>> To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion<br>>> <<a href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>>> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 29<br>
>> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:4CB5882B.1040104@kingdombio.com" target="_blank">4CB5882B.1040104@kingdombio.com</a>><br>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"<br>
>><br>>> Listers, Hi<br>>><br>>> The Ashden Awards <<a href="http://www.ashdenawards.org/int_awards" target="_blank">http://www.ashdenawards.org/int_awards</a>> are looking<br>>> for projects on renewable energy to be submitted for a possible award.<br>
>> Biogas projects have done well in past years (see the videos listed<br>>> under Ashden Awards on the Biogas Wikispaces<br>>> <<a href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/Videos" target="_blank">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/Videos</a>> page). I have added the two that<br>
>> won awards in 2010.<br>>><br>>> If you think you have, or know of, a project that could be classed as an<br>>> "Energy Champion", that relates to any form of renewable energy do<br>>> consider applying. The deadline for International Awards is fairly tight<br>
>> - 19 October, so you need to download the information<br>>> <<br>>> <a href="http://www.ashdenawards.org/files/docs/2011/International_EOI_briefing.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.ashdenawards.org/files/docs/2011/International_EOI_briefing.pdf</a><br>
>> ><br>>> and the forms<br>>> <<br>>> <a href="http://www.ashdenawards.org/files/application_form_2010/Ashden_Awards_2011_International_EOI_form.xls" target="_blank">http://www.ashdenawards.org/files/application_form_2010/Ashden_Awards_2011_International_EOI_form.xls</a><br>
>> ><br>>> and fill them in quickly. As well as projects involving biogas, they are<br>>> also looking for projects on the wider subject of biomass, as well as<br>>> solar, hydro and wind, or any system that provides or encourages the use<br>
>> of sustainable energy.<br>>><br>>> Regards,<br>>><br>>> David Fulford<br>>> --<br>>><br>>> ********************************************************************<br>>> Dr David Fulford CEnv MEI, 15, Brandon Ave, Woodley, Reading RG5 4PU<br>
>> <a href="mailto:d.j.fulford@btinternet.com" target="_blank">d.j.fulford@btinternet.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:d.j.fulford@btinternet.com" target="_blank">d.j.fulford@btinternet.com</a>>, Tel:<br>>> +44(0)118 326 9779 Mob: +44(0)7746 806401<br>
>> Kingdom Bioenergy Ltd, <a href="http://www.kingdombio.com/" target="_blank">www.kingdombio.com</a> <<a href="http://www.kingdombio.com/" target="_blank">http://www.kingdombio.com</a>>,<br>>> <a href="mailto:davidf@kindombio.com" target="_blank">davidf@kindombio.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:davidf@kindombio.com" target="_blank">davidf@kindombio.com</a>><br>
>><br>>> -------------- next part --------------<br>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>>> URL: <<br>>> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20101013/68bc684d/attachment-0001.html" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20101013/68bc684d/attachment-0001.html</a><br>
>> ><br>>><br>>> ------------------------------<br>>><br>>> _______________________________________________<br>>> Digestion mailing list<br>>><br>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
>> <a href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a><br>>><br>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>>><br>>> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>><br>>> for more information about digestion, see<br>>> Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br>>> <a href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/" target="_blank">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br>
>> and the Biogas Wiki <a href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/" target="_blank">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>> End of Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 31<br>>> ****************************************<br>
>><br>><br>><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Digestion mailing list<br>><br>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>> <a href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a><br>
><br>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>><br>> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
><br>> for more information about digestion, see<br>> Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br>> <a href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/" target="_blank">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br>> and the Biogas Wiki <a href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/" target="_blank">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br>
><br>><br>><br><br><br>--<br>***<br>Dr. A.D. Karve<br>President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)<br><br>*Please change my email address in your records to: <a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com" target="_blank">adkarve@gmail.com</a> *<br>
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<br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 2<br>Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 14:07:45 +0530<br>From: Sumedh Bapat <<a href="mailto:sumedh.bapat@gmail.com" target="_blank">sumedh.bapat@gmail.com</a>><br>To: <a href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40<br>Message-ID:<br> <AANLkTimwCStXcg7Yf57U8MAVtAXt+C-uK20wEq=<a href="mailto:GWdZx@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">GWdZx@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>Dear Dr. Karve,<br>I am sorry to comment on this again but I cannot overlook the discrepancy in<br>the information you have provided here..<br><br>* on October 17 you said :*<br>"In any case, once it is accepted that the methanogenic organisms do not<br>
digest the dung directly and that they need the help of other organisms to<br>digest it, one cannot accept that dung is the food of the methanogens. It is<br>like saying that manure applied to a field is human food, because through a<br>
number of biological processes it ultimately ends up into products, which<br>the humans eat."<br><br>*on October 24 you said :*<br>"According to text book knowledge, 1000 kg dung should have produced about<br>30,000 litres (or 30 cubic meters) biogas. But this particular biogas plant<br>
produces 540 cubic meters of it."<br><br><br>I also happen to notice that both the subjects refer to cow dung. Now it can<br>be seen that you claim that some other plant is generating 540 times more<br>gas than your plants.<br>
Do you mean that this 540 m3 gas that you saw, is produced by Methanogens<br>which have consumed other similar organisms from the biogas plant , which in<br>turn had "eaten" the Cpw Dung ?<br>Can you please explain the sudden Biogas Generation manifold increase<br>
from 30 m3 (conventionally known) to 540 m3 ?<br>*Again* _ Can you please provide a basis for such a finding ?<br><br>Kind Regards,<br>Sumedh Bapat<br><br><br>On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 12:30 AM, <<br><a href="mailto:digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>> Send Digestion mailing list submissions to<br>> <a href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>><br>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br>
><br>> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>><br>
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br>> <a href="mailto:digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>><br>
> You can reach the person managing the list at<br>> <a href="mailto:digestion-owner@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">digestion-owner@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>><br>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>
> than "Re: Contents of Digestion digest..."<br>><br>><br>> Today's Topics:<br>><br>> 1. Re: Attachment to previous Article - More scientific based<br>> research and questions (Anand Karve)<br>
><br>><br>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>><br>> Message: 1<br>> Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 02:43:13 +0800<br>> From: Anand Karve <<a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com" target="_blank">adkarve@gmail.com</a>><br>
> To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion<br>> <<a href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Attachment to previous Article - More<br>
> scientific based research and questions<br>> Message-ID:<br>> <AANLkTi=qxog1xd-4Q9JOwVaNpL8S=Bgpc2n=JxY7R5a=@<a href="http://mail.gmail.com/" target="_blank">mail.gmail.com</a>><br>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
><br>> Dear Dr. Martin,<br>> I have just returned from a city called Wardha, where I attended a workshop<br>> arranged jointly by the Research Councils of UK and the Department of<br>> Science and Technology, Government of India. About 20 scientists each from<br>
> UK and India were invited to this meeting.<br>> In the course of field visits organised during the workshop, Dr. Soham<br>> Pandya, The Director of Centre of Science for Villages, an NGO in Wardha,<br>> showed us an amazing biogas plant on his campus. This biogas plant accepts<br>
> about 1000 kg cattle dung as a one-time load and produces daily about 3<br>> cubic meters of biogas, continuously over a period of about 180 days. This<br>> is not the only biogas plant constructed by him. Using funds from the<br>
> Department of Science and Technology, He has constructed a similar biogas<br>> plant in another place called Hingoli, where a one-time load of 1000 kg<br>> dung yields biogas continuously for 6 months, to run an electricity<br>
> generator for daily 3 to 4 hours, to provide electric lighting to all the<br>> houses in the village. Officials of the Department of Science and<br>> Technology vouched for the veracity of these claims. According to text book<br>
> knowledge, 1000 kg dung should have produced about 30,000 litres (or 30<br>> cubic meters) biogas. But this particular biogas plant produces 540 cubic<br>> meters of it.<br>> Neither Dr. Pandya nor any other scientist could give a<br>
> scientific explanation to this phenomenally high yield of biogas. Dung of<br>> Indian cattle consists mainly of lignin (from the veins and midribs of the<br>> grass and leaves that they feed on) and micro-organisms. One has to assume<br>
> in this case, that there are microbes in the dung that feed on the lignin<br>> and that the methanogens digested the lignin eating microbes.<br>> Yours<br>> A.D.Karve<br>><br>> On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 3:53 PM, Duncan Martin <<a href="mailto:duncanjmartin@gmail.com" target="_blank">duncanjmartin@gmail.com</a><br>
> >wrote:<br>><br>> > Perhaps Dr Karve & I should agree to disagree?<br>> ><br>> > To argue that dung is not food for the methanogens because they need help<br>> > to digest it is really a semantic quibble. It misses the point I was<br>
> > responding to - that the digestion process is not *completed *by the act<br>> > of defaecation, it is merely *terminated* for the owner of the gut in<br>> > question.<br>> ><br>> > I have never seen any serious literature suggesting that microbes are<br>
> > altruistic. However, the principles of commensalism are well established<br>> and<br>> > I see no basis for dismissing them. Moreover, the complex web of<br>> metabolic<br>> > interactions in AD has been extensively researched and is pretty well<br>
> > understood - though I am sure there is more to discover.<br>> ><br>> > Nor have I seen any literature whatsoever suggesting that the methanogens<br>> > consume other microorganisms. I would be intrigued to see a proposed<br>
> > mechanism.<br>> ><br>> > To dismiss all the textbooks as wrong (see previous postings) is<br>> unhelpful,<br>> > at best. Who could only say that unless he had read every one of them? Of<br>
> > course, there are mistakes - even in the best books - if only because<br>> > science moves on, so any book becomes outdated. And there are indeed some<br>> > layman's guides to AD that include some odd ideas - but who would take<br>
> them<br>> > as serious guides to the science?<br>> ><br>> > When we find such errors, let us use this forum to report them - giving<br>> > exact references. But lets not confuse newcomers to the field by<br>
> dismissing<br>> > every other source of information as rubbish.<br>> ><br>> > Finally, let us accept that each of us is entitled to his opinion - but<br>> > lets reserve this forum for the fruits of practical experience and<br>
> > evidence-based information.<br>> ><br>> > I suggest we draw a line under the present debate.<br>> ><br>> > Duncan Martin, PhD, MCIWM, MIChemE, MIEI<br>> > Cloughjordan Ecovillage<br>
> > Ireland<br>> ><br>> > On 17 October 2010 16:39, Anand Karve <<a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com" target="_blank">adkarve@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>> ><br>> >> Dear Duncan,<br>> >> I dont believe in the theory of a chain of micro-organisms, with one<br>
> >> species converting the cellulose into glucose, another converting the<br>> >> glucose into an organic acid (e.g. citric acid), still another<br>> converting<br>> >> the organic acid into acetic acid and ultimately the acetic acid being<br>
> >> converted by the methanogenic organisms into carbon dioxide and methane.<br>> If<br>> >> this were true, one would have by now isolated the organism that<br>> converted<br>> >> cellulose into glucose and used the glucose to produce alcohol.<br>
> Cellulose is<br>> >> the most ubiquitously found organic compount in the world and with this<br>> >> simple process, one would have produced unlimited quantity of liquid<br>> fuel.<br>> >> But even today, the conversion of cellulose into glucose is achieved in<br>
> any<br>> >> industrial process by using a cellulolytic enzyme extracted from a<br>> >> cellulolytic organism. The reason for this is, that the glucose<br>> converted by<br>> >> the organism from cellulose is consumed by the same organism. And once<br>
> it is<br>> >> consumed by an organism, it is converted into its cell all the way down<br>> to<br>> >> carbon dioxide. The micro-organisms in the gut of an animal cannot be<br>> >> expected to be so altruistic as to predigest the food and suply it to<br>
> the<br>> >> methanogens. I feel that the methanogenic organisms consume the fellow<br>> >> micro-organisms in the gut of animals and digest them to produce methane<br>> and<br>> >> carbon dioxide. Such dog-eat-dog reactions occur also in the soil<br>
> supplied<br>> >> with organic matter.<br>> >> In any case, once it is accepted that the methanogenic organisms<br>> >> do not digest the dung directly and that they need the help of other<br>
> >> organisms to digest it, one cannot accept that dung is the food of the<br>> >> methanogens. It is like saying that manure applied to a field is human<br>> food,<br>> >> because through a number of biological processes it ultimately ends up<br>
> into<br>> >> products, which the humans eat.<br>> >> Yours<br>> >> A.D.Karve<br>> >> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Duncan Martin <<br>> <a href="mailto:duncanjmartin@gmail.com" target="_blank">duncanjmartin@gmail.com</a><br>
> >> > wrote:<br>> >><br>> >>><br>> >>> Yes, the gut methanogens do, in a sense, eat what the animal eats.<br>> >>> However, it would be more accurate to say that their diet is derived<br>
> from<br>> >>> what the animal eats. The methanogens in the gut of a cow are<br>> surrounded by<br>> >>> celluose and other biopolymers but they cannot digest them. They live<br>> on the<br>
> >>> waste products of other microbial processes. The web of metabolic<br>> >>> interactions is well known.<br>> >>><br>> >>> Where I would "hoot out" Dr Karve is his belief that dung cannot serve<br>
> as<br>> >>> food for the methanogens because they are "thrown out" of the body<br>> along<br>> >>> with the dung. I don't understand the logic here.<br>> >>><br>> >>><br>
> >>><br>> >> _______________________________________________<br>> >> Digestion mailing list<br>> >><br>> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>> >> <a href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a><br>
> >><br>> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>> >><br>> >><br>> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
> >><br>> >> for more information about digestion, see<br>> >> Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br>> >> <a href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/" target="_blank">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br>
> >> and the Biogas Wiki <a href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/" target="_blank">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br>> >><br>> >><br>> >><br>> ><br>> > _______________________________________________<br>
> > Digestion mailing list<br>> ><br>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>> > <a href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a><br>
> ><br>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>> ><br>> ><br>> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
> ><br>> > for more information about digestion, see<br>> > Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br>> > <a href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/" target="_blank">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br>
> > and the Biogas Wiki <a href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/" target="_blank">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>><br>><br>> --<br>> ***<br>> Dr. A.D. Karve<br>
> President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)<br>><br>> *Please change my email address in your records to: <a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com" target="_blank">adkarve@gmail.com</a> *<br>> -------------- next part --------------<br>
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> ><br>><br>> ------------------------------<br>><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Digestion mailing list<br>><br>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
> <a href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a><br>><br>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>><br>> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
><br>> for more information about digestion, see<br>> Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br>> <a href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/" target="_blank">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br>> and the Biogas Wiki <a href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/" target="_blank">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br>
><br>><br>><br>> End of Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40<br>> ****************************************<br>><br>-------------- next part --------------<br>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>URL: <<a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20101024/de6c7456/attachment-0001.html" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20101024/de6c7456/attachment-0001.html</a>><br>
<br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 3<br>Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 17:31:10 +0800<br>From: Anand Karve <<a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com" target="_blank">adkarve@gmail.com</a>><br>To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion<br>
<<a href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40<br>Message-ID:<br> <<a href="mailto:AANLkTinpeuNYs446hbVAu2o5Dz17v9U6jCgyhkhgKxkO@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">AANLkTinpeuNYs446hbVAu2o5Dz17v9U6jCgyhkhgKxkO@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br><br>Dear Mr. Bapat,<br>the biogas plant in Wardha, which accepts 1000 kg cattle dung as a one-time<br>load and produces daily 3 cubic meter biogas continuously over a period of<br>
180 days, was an absolutely novel system to me. In fact that is why I<br>reported it, because I felt that somebody in the AD discussion group maight<br>know more about it. Since neither the British scientists nor any of the<br>
Indian scientists present there could give a scientific explanation to this<br>phenomenon, I have ventured a plausible explanation. The Archaea are a very<br>ancient group of organisms. Lignin is produced by green plants, which<br>
evolved much later. Therefore the methanogens cannot digest lignin. The fact<br>that in Wardha, this particular biogas plant was producing almost 18 times<br>as much biogas as would be expected, can be explained by the assumption<br>
that lignin was being digested by some other organisms and the products of<br>the lignin digesting organisms were being made available to the<br>mehanogens. But the speculation that some species of organisms conduct<br>extra-cellular digestion of cellulose or lignin, and make the products<br>
of such digestion available to the methanogens, is not acceptable to me,<br>because if such were really the case, one would have used such organisms to<br>produce sugars from lignocellulosic material and then obtained alcohol from<br>
these sugars. Since nobody has succeeded in doing this, I feel that the<br>organisms that digest cellulose or lignin consume the sugars themselves and<br>multiply their own numbers, and that the methanogens consume these microbes<br>
to produce methane. I am ready to accept any other explanation, if it is<br>logical.<br>Yours<br>A.D.Karve<br><br>On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 4:37 PM, Sumedh Bapat <<a href="mailto:sumedh.bapat@gmail.com" target="_blank">sumedh.bapat@gmail.com</a>>wrote:<br>
<br>> Dear Dr. Karve,<br>> I am sorry to comment on this again but I cannot overlook the discrepancy<br>> in the information you have provided here..<br>><br>> * on October 17 you said :*<br>> "In any case, once it is accepted that the methanogenic organisms do not<br>
> digest the dung directly and that they need the help of other organisms to<br>> digest it, one cannot accept that dung is the food of the methanogens. It is<br>> like saying that manure applied to a field is human food, because through a<br>
> number of biological processes it ultimately ends up into products, which<br>> the humans eat."<br>><br>> *on October 24 you said :*<br>> "According to text book knowledge, 1000 kg dung should have produced about<br>
> 30,000 litres (or 30 cubic meters) biogas. But this particular biogas plant<br>> produces 540 cubic meters of it."<br>><br>><br>> I also happen to notice that both the subjects refer to cow dung.<br>
> Now it can be seen that you claim that some other plant is generating 540<br>> times more gas than your plants.<br>> Do you mean that this 540 m3 gas that you saw, is produced by Methanogens<br>> which have consumed other similar organisms from the biogas plant , which in<br>
> turn had "eaten" the Cpw Dung ?<br>> Can you please explain the sudden Biogas Generation manifold increase<br>> from 30 m3 (conventionally known) to 540 m3 ?<br>> *Again* _ Can you please provide a basis for such a finding ?<br>
><br>> Kind Regards,<br>> Sumedh Bapat<br>><br>><br>> On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 12:30 AM, <<br>> <a href="mailto:digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>>> Send Digestion mailing list submissions to<br>>> <a href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>>><br>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br>
>><br>>> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>><br>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br>>> <a href="mailto:digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>><br>>> You can reach the person managing the list at<br>>> <a href="mailto:digestion-owner@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">digestion-owner@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>>><br>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>
>> than "Re: Contents of Digestion digest..."<br>>><br>>><br>>> Today's Topics:<br>>><br>>> 1. Re: Attachment to previous Article - More scientific based<br>>> research and questions (Anand Karve)<br>
>><br>>><br>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>>><br>>> Message: 1<br>>> Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 02:43:13 +0800<br>>> From: Anand Karve <<a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com" target="_blank">adkarve@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion<br>>> <<a href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>>> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Attachment to previous Article - More<br>
>> scientific based research and questions<br>>> Message-ID:<br>>> <AANLkTi=qxog1xd-4Q9JOwVaNpL8S=Bgpc2n=JxY7R5a=@<a href="http://mail.gmail.com/" target="_blank">mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>>><br>>> Dear Dr. Martin,<br>>> I have just returned from a city called Wardha, where I attended a<br>>> workshop<br>>> arranged jointly by the Research Councils of UK and the Department of<br>
>> Science and Technology, Government of India. About 20 scientists each from<br>>> UK and India were invited to this meeting.<br>>> In the course of field visits organised during the workshop, Dr. Soham<br>
>> Pandya, The Director of Centre of Science for Villages, an NGO in Wardha,<br>>> showed us an amazing biogas plant on his campus. This biogas plant accepts<br>>> about 1000 kg cattle dung as a one-time load and produces daily about 3<br>
>> cubic meters of biogas, continuously over a period of about 180 days.<br>>> This<br>>> is not the only biogas plant constructed by him. Using funds from the<br>>> Department of Science and Technology, He has constructed a similar biogas<br>
>> plant in another place called Hingoli, where a one-time load of 1000 kg<br>>> dung yields biogas continuously for 6 months, to run an electricity<br>>> generator for daily 3 to 4 hours, to provide electric lighting to all the<br>
>> houses in the village. Officials of the Department of Science and<br>>> Technology vouched for the veracity of these claims. According to text<br>>> book<br>>> knowledge, 1000 kg dung should have produced about 30,000 litres (or 30<br>
>> cubic meters) biogas. But this particular biogas plant produces 540 cubic<br>>> meters of it.<br>>> Neither Dr. Pandya nor any other scientist could give a<br>>> scientific explanation to this phenomenally high yield of biogas. Dung of<br>
>> Indian cattle consists mainly of lignin (from the veins and midribs of the<br>>> grass and leaves that they feed on) and micro-organisms. One has to assume<br>>> in this case, that there are microbes in the dung that feed on the lignin<br>
>> and that the methanogens digested the lignin eating microbes.<br>>> Yours<br>>> A.D.Karve<br>>><br>>> On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 3:53 PM, Duncan Martin <<a href="mailto:duncanjmartin@gmail.com" target="_blank">duncanjmartin@gmail.com</a><br>
>> >wrote:<br>>><br>>> > Perhaps Dr Karve & I should agree to disagree?<br>>> ><br>>> > To argue that dung is not food for the methanogens because they need<br>>> help<br>
>> > to digest it is really a semantic quibble. It misses the point I was<br>>> > responding to - that the digestion process is not *completed *by the act<br>>> > of defaecation, it is merely *terminated* for the owner of the gut in<br>
>> > question.<br>>> ><br>>> > I have never seen any serious literature suggesting that microbes are<br>>> > altruistic. However, the principles of commensalism are well established<br>
>> and<br>>> > I see no basis for dismissing them. Moreover, the complex web of<br>>> metabolic<br>>> > interactions in AD has been extensively researched and is pretty well<br>>> > understood - though I am sure there is more to discover.<br>
>> ><br>>> > Nor have I seen any literature whatsoever suggesting that the<br>>> methanogens<br>>> > consume other microorganisms. I would be intrigued to see a proposed<br>>> > mechanism.<br>
>> ><br>>> > To dismiss all the textbooks as wrong (see previous postings) is<br>>> unhelpful,<br>>> > at best. Who could only say that unless he had read every one of them?<br>>> Of<br>
>> > course, there are mistakes - even in the best books - if only because<br>>> > science moves on, so any book becomes outdated. And there are indeed<br>>> some<br>>> > layman's guides to AD that include some odd ideas - but who would take<br>
>> them<br>>> > as serious guides to the science?<br>>> ><br>>> > When we find such errors, let us use this forum to report them - giving<br>>> > exact references. But lets not confuse newcomers to the field by<br>
>> dismissing<br>>> > every other source of information as rubbish.<br>>> ><br>>> > Finally, let us accept that each of us is entitled to his opinion - but<br>>> > lets reserve this forum for the fruits of practical experience and<br>
>> > evidence-based information.<br>>> ><br>>> > I suggest we draw a line under the present debate.<br>>> ><br>>> > Duncan Martin, PhD, MCIWM, MIChemE, MIEI<br>>> > Cloughjordan Ecovillage<br>
>> > Ireland<br>>> ><br>>> > On 17 October 2010 16:39, Anand Karve <<a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com" target="_blank">adkarve@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>>> ><br>>> >> Dear Duncan,<br>
>> >> I dont believe in the theory of a chain of micro-organisms, with one<br>>> >> species converting the cellulose into glucose, another converting the<br>>> >> glucose into an organic acid (e.g. citric acid), still another<br>
>> converting<br>>> >> the organic acid into acetic acid and ultimately the acetic acid being<br>>> >> converted by the methanogenic organisms into carbon dioxide and<br>>> methane. If<br>
>> >> this were true, one would have by now isolated the organism that<br>>> converted<br>>> >> cellulose into glucose and used the glucose to produce alcohol.<br>>> Cellulose is<br>>> >> the most ubiquitously found organic compount in the world and with this<br>
>> >> simple process, one would have produced unlimited quantity of liquid<br>>> fuel.<br>>> >> But even today, the conversion of cellulose into glucose is achieved in<br>>> any<br>>> >> industrial process by using a cellulolytic enzyme extracted from a<br>
>> >> cellulolytic organism. The reason for this is, that the glucose<br>>> converted by<br>>> >> the organism from cellulose is consumed by the same organism. And once<br>>> it is<br>>> >> consumed by an organism, it is converted into its cell all the way down<br>
>> to<br>>> >> carbon dioxide. The micro-organisms in the gut of an animal cannot be<br>>> >> expected to be so altruistic as to predigest the food and suply it to<br>>> the<br>>> >> methanogens. I feel that the methanogenic organisms consume the fellow<br>
>> >> micro-organisms in the gut of animals and digest them to produce<br>>> methane and<br>>> >> carbon dioxide. Such dog-eat-dog reactions occur also in the soil<br>>> supplied<br>>> >> with organic matter.<br>
>> >> In any case, once it is accepted that the methanogenic<br>>> organisms<br>>> >> do not digest the dung directly and that they need the help of other<br>>> >> organisms to digest it, one cannot accept that dung is the food of the<br>
>> >> methanogens. It is like saying that manure applied to a field is human<br>>> food,<br>>> >> because through a number of biological processes it ultimately ends up<br>>> into<br>>> >> products, which the humans eat.<br>
>> >> Yours<br>>> >> A.D.Karve<br>>> >> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Duncan Martin <<br>>> <a href="mailto:duncanjmartin@gmail.com" target="_blank">duncanjmartin@gmail.com</a><br>
>> >> > wrote:<br>>> >><br>>> >>><br>>> >>> Yes, the gut methanogens do, in a sense, eat what the animal eats.<br>>> >>> However, it would be more accurate to say that their diet is derived<br>
>> from<br>>> >>> what the animal eats. The methanogens in the gut of a cow are<br>>> surrounded by<br>>> >>> celluose and other biopolymers but they cannot digest them. They live<br>
>> on the<br>>> >>> waste products of other microbial processes. The web of metabolic<br>>> >>> interactions is well known.<br>>> >>><br>>> >>> Where I would "hoot out" Dr Karve is his belief that dung cannot serve<br>
>> as<br>>> >>> food for the methanogens because they are "thrown out" of the body<br>>> along<br>>> >>> with the dung. I don't understand the logic here.<br>>> >>><br>
>> >>><br>>> >>><br>>> >> _______________________________________________<br>>> >> Digestion mailing list<br>>> >><br>>> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
>> >> <a href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a><br>>> >><br>>> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>>> >><br>
>> >><br>>> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>> >><br>>> >> for more information about digestion, see<br>>> >> Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br>>> >> <a href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/" target="_blank">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br>
>> >> and the Biogas Wiki <a href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/" target="_blank">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br>>> >><br>>> >><br>>> >><br>>> ><br>>> > _______________________________________________<br>
>> > Digestion mailing list<br>>> ><br>>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>>> > <a href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>> ><br>>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>>> ><br>>> ><br>>> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>> ><br>>> > for more information about digestion, see<br>>> > Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br>>> > <a href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/" target="_blank">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br>
>> > and the Biogas Wiki <a href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/" target="_blank">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br>>> ><br>>> ><br>>> ><br>>><br>>><br>>> --<br>>> ***<br>
>> Dr. A.D. Karve<br>>> President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)<br>>><br>>> *Please change my email address in your records to: <a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com" target="_blank">adkarve@gmail.com</a> *<br>
>> -------------- next part --------------<br>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>>> URL: <<br>>> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20101024/49a74dc6/attachment-0001.html" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20101024/49a74dc6/attachment-0001.html</a><br>
>> ><br>>><br>>> ------------------------------<br>>><br>>> _______________________________________________<br>>> Digestion mailing list<br>>><br>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
>> <a href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a><br>>><br>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>>><br>>> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>><br>>> for more information about digestion, see<br>>> Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br>>> <a href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/" target="_blank">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br>
>> and the Biogas Wiki <a href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/" target="_blank">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>> End of Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40<br>>> ****************************************<br>
>><br>><br>><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Digestion mailing list<br>><br>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>> <a href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a><br>
><br>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>><br>> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
><br>> for more information about digestion, see<br>> Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br>> <a href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/" target="_blank">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br>> and the Biogas Wiki <a href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/" target="_blank">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br>
><br>><br>><br><br><br>--<br>***<br>Dr. A.D. Karve<br>President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)<br><br>*Please change my email address in your records to: <a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com" target="_blank">adkarve@gmail.com</a> *<br>
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<br>------------------------------<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Digestion mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>for more information about digestion, see<br>Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br><a href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/" target="_blank">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br>and the Biogas Wiki <a href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/" target="_blank">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br>
<br><br><br>End of Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 41<br>****************************************<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>
<div>Kind Regards,</div>
<div><font color="#666666"> </font></div>
<div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex">
<div><font color="#666666"><strong>Sumedh Bapat<br>+919881090693 / +919879110924</strong></font></div>
<div><br><font color="#006600"><strong>Excellent Renewable Pvt. Ltd.<br></strong>(formerly known as Excel Electricals Pvt. Ltd.)</font><br><font color="#006600">Excel Estate, Vashier,<br>Valsad, Gujarat 396001<br>India<br>
Phone: +91 2632 227277, 227279<br>Fax: +91 2632 227470</font></div></blockquote></div>
<div> </div><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Digestion mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>for more information about digestion, see<br>Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br><a href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/" target="_blank">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br>and the Biogas Wiki <a href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/" target="_blank">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br>
<br><br></blockquote><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>***<br>Dr. A.D. Karve<br>President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)<br><br>*Please change my email address in your records to: <a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">adkarve@gmail.com</a> *<br>
<br><br><br>