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Hi,<br>
<br>
when you compare the yields based on fresh mass, are you sure you're
talking about the same "dung"?<br>
<br>
Here in Central Europe cattle often are kept in stables leading to
liquid (~8%TS) manure. <br>
In India perhaps "dung" is "dried dung"?<br>
Generally, for comapring gas yields of substrates it's better to
compare gas yields based on VS, not fresh matter, since water
content may vary a lot.<br>
<br>
I can't think that there's a production of 18 times more biogas if
we are talking about comparable dung. You may calculate/estimate a
C-Balance. If there's one loading, you can't get more C in CH4/CO2
out of the system than you have put into it with the
substrate/inoculum in the beginning.<br>
<br>
Markus Schlattmann<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Am 24.10.2010 11:31, schrieb Anand Karve:
<blockquote
cite="mid:AANLkTinpeuNYs446hbVAu2o5Dz17v9U6jCgyhkhgKxkO@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Context-Type" content="text/html;
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<div>Dear Mr. Bapat,</div>
<div>the biogas plant in Wardha, which accepts 1000 kg cattle dung
as a one-time load and produces daily 3 cubic meter biogas
continuously over a period of 180 days, was an absolutely novel
system to me. In fact that is why I reported it, because I felt
that somebody in the AD discussion group maight know more about
it. Since neither the British scientists nor any of the Indian
scientists present there could give a scientific explanation to
this phenomenon, I have ventured a plausible explanation. The
Archaea are a very ancient group of organisms. Lignin is
produced by green plants, which evolved much later.
Therefore the methanogens cannot digest lignin. The fact that in
Wardha, this particular biogas plant was producing almost 18
times as much biogas as would be expected, can be explained by
the assumption that lignin was being digested by some other
organisms and the products of the lignin digesting organisms
were being made available to the mehanogens. But the
speculation that some species of organisms conduct
extra-cellular digestion of cellulose or lignin, and make the
products of such digestion available to the methanogens, is not
acceptable to me, because if such were really the case, one
would have used such organisms to produce sugars from
lignocellulosic material and then obtained alcohol from these
sugars. Since nobody has succeeded in doing this, I feel that
the organisms that digest cellulose or lignin consume the sugars
themselves and multiply their own numbers, and that the
methanogens consume these microbes to produce methane. I
am ready to accept any other explanation, if it is logical. </div>
<div>Yours</div>
<div>A.D.Karve<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 4:37 PM, Sumedh Bapat <span><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:sumedh.bapat@gmail.com">sumedh.bapat@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote>
<div>Dear Dr. Karve,</div>
<div>I am sorry to comment on this again but I cannot overlook
the discrepancy in the information you have provided here..</div>
<div> </div>
<div><strong><em> on October 17 you said : </em></strong></div>
<div> "In any case, once it is accepted that the methanogenic
organisms do not digest the dung directly and that they need
the help of other organisms to digest it, one cannot accept
that dung is the food of the methanogens. It is like saying
that manure applied to a field is human food, because
through a number of biological processes it ultimately ends
up into products, which the humans eat." </div>
<div> </div>
<div><strong><em> on October 24 you said : </em></strong></div>
<div> "According to text book knowledge, 1000 kg dung should
have produced about 30,000 litres (or 30 cubic meters)
biogas. But this particular biogas plant produces 540 cubic
meters of it." </div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div>I also happen to notice that both the subjects refer to
cow dung. Now it can be seen that you claim that some other
plant is generating 540 times more gas than your plants.</div>
<div>Do you mean that this 540 m3 gas that you saw, is
produced by Methanogens which have consumed other similar
organisms from the biogas plant , which in turn had "eaten"
the Cpw Dung ?</div>
<div>Can you please explain the sudden Biogas Generation
manifold increase from 30 m3 (conventionally known) to 540
m3 ?<br>
<em>Again</em> _ Can you please provide a basis for such a
finding ?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Kind Regards,</div>
<div>Sumedh Bapat</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 12:30 AM, <span><<a
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Today's Topics:<br>
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1. Re: Attachment to previous Article - More scientific
based<br>
research and questions (Anand Karve)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 02:43:13 +0800<br>
From: Anand Karve <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">adkarve@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion<br>
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org">digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Digestion] Attachment to previous Article -
More<br>
scientific based research and questions<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<AANLkTi=qxog1xd-4Q9JOwVaNpL8S=Bgpc2n=JxY7R5a=@<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://mail.gmail.com/">mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
Dear Dr. Martin,<br>
I have just returned from a city called Wardha, where I
attended a workshop<br>
arranged jointly by the Research Councils of UK and the
Department of<br>
Science and Technology, Government of India. About 20
scientists each from<br>
UK and India were invited to this meeting.<br>
In the course of field visits organised during the
workshop, Dr. Soham<br>
Pandya, The Director of Centre of Science for Villages, an
NGO in Wardha,<br>
showed us an amazing biogas plant on his campus. This
biogas plant accepts<br>
about 1000 kg cattle dung as a one-time load and produces
daily about 3<br>
cubic meters of biogas, continuously over a period of
about 180 days. This<br>
is not the only biogas plant constructed by him. Using
funds from the<br>
Department of Science and Technology, He has constructed a
similar biogas<br>
plant in another place called Hingoli, where a one-time
load of 1000 kg<br>
dung yields biogas continuously for 6 months, to run an
electricity<br>
generator for daily 3 to 4 hours, to provide electric
lighting to all the<br>
houses in the village. Officials of the Department of
Science and<br>
Technology vouched for the veracity of these claims.
According to text book<br>
knowledge, 1000 kg dung should have produced about 30,000
litres (or 30<br>
cubic meters) biogas. But this particular biogas plant
produces 540 cubic<br>
meters of it.<br>
Neither Dr. Pandya nor any other scientist could give a<br>
scientific explanation to this phenomenally high yield of
biogas. Dung of<br>
Indian cattle consists mainly of lignin (from the veins
and midribs of the<br>
grass and leaves that they feed on) and micro-organisms.
One has to assume<br>
in this case, that there are microbes in the dung that
feed on the lignin<br>
and that the methanogens digested the lignin eating
microbes.<br>
Yours<br>
A.D.Karve<br>
<br>
On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 3:53 PM, Duncan Martin <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:duncanjmartin@gmail.com">duncanjmartin@gmail.com</a>>wrote:<br>
<br>
> Perhaps Dr Karve & I should agree to disagree?<br>
><br>
> To argue that dung is not food for the methanogens
because they need help<br>
> to digest it is really a semantic quibble. It misses
the point I was<br>
> responding to - that the digestion process is not
*completed *by the act<br>
> of defaecation, it is merely *terminated* for the
owner of the gut in<br>
> question.<br>
><br>
> I have never seen any serious literature suggesting
that microbes are<br>
> altruistic. However, the principles of commensalism
are well established and<br>
> I see no basis for dismissing them. Moreover, the
complex web of metabolic<br>
> interactions in AD has been extensively researched
and is pretty well<br>
> understood - though I am sure there is more to
discover.<br>
><br>
> Nor have I seen any literature whatsoever suggesting
that the methanogens<br>
> consume other microorganisms. I would be intrigued to
see a proposed<br>
> mechanism.<br>
><br>
> To dismiss all the textbooks as wrong (see previous
postings) is unhelpful,<br>
> at best. Who could only say that unless he had read
every one of them? Of<br>
> course, there are mistakes - even in the best books -
if only because<br>
> science moves on, so any book becomes outdated. And
there are indeed some<br>
> layman's guides to AD that include some odd ideas -
but who would take them<br>
> as serious guides to the science?<br>
><br>
> When we find such errors, let us use this forum to
report them - giving<br>
> exact references. But lets not confuse newcomers to
the field by dismissing<br>
> every other source of information as rubbish.<br>
><br>
> Finally, let us accept that each of us is entitled to
his opinion - but<br>
> lets reserve this forum for the fruits of practical
experience and<br>
> evidence-based information.<br>
><br>
> I suggest we draw a line under the present debate.<br>
><br>
> Duncan Martin, PhD, MCIWM, MIChemE, MIEI<br>
> Cloughjordan Ecovillage<br>
> Ireland<br>
><br>
> On 17 October 2010 16:39, Anand Karve <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">adkarve@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Dear Duncan,<br>
>> I dont believe in the theory of a chain of
micro-organisms, with one<br>
>> species converting the cellulose into glucose,
another converting the<br>
>> glucose into an organic acid (e.g. citric acid),
still another converting<br>
>> the organic acid into acetic acid and ultimately
the acetic acid being<br>
>> converted by the methanogenic organisms into
carbon dioxide and methane. If<br>
>> this were true, one would have by now isolated
the organism that converted<br>
>> cellulose into glucose and used the glucose to
produce alcohol. Cellulose is<br>
>> the most ubiquitously found organic compount in
the world and with this<br>
>> simple process, one would have produced unlimited
quantity of liquid fuel.<br>
>> But even today, the conversion of cellulose into
glucose is achieved in any<br>
>> industrial process by using a cellulolytic enzyme
extracted from a<br>
>> cellulolytic organism. The reason for this is,
that the glucose converted by<br>
>> the organism from cellulose is consumed by the
same organism. And once it is<br>
>> consumed by an organism, it is converted into its
cell all the way down to<br>
>> carbon dioxide. The micro-organisms in the gut of
an animal cannot be<br>
>> expected to be so altruistic as to predigest the
food and suply it to the<br>
>> methanogens. I feel that the methanogenic
organisms consume the fellow<br>
>> micro-organisms in the gut of animals and digest
them to produce methane and<br>
>> carbon dioxide. Such dog-eat-dog reactions occur
also in the soil supplied<br>
>> with organic matter.<br>
>> In any case, once it is accepted that the
methanogenic organisms<br>
>> do not digest the dung directly and that they
need the help of other<br>
>> organisms to digest it, one cannot accept that
dung is the food of the<br>
>> methanogens. It is like saying that manure
applied to a field is human food,<br>
>> because through a number of biological processes
it ultimately ends up into<br>
>> products, which the humans eat.<br>
>> Yours<br>
>> A.D.Karve<br>
>> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Duncan Martin
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:duncanjmartin@gmail.com">duncanjmartin@gmail.com</a><br>
>> > wrote:<br>
>><br>
>>><br>
>>> Yes, the gut methanogens do, in a sense, eat
what the animal eats.<br>
>>> However, it would be more accurate to say
that their diet is derived from<br>
>>> what the animal eats. The methanogens in the
gut of a cow are surrounded by<br>
>>> celluose and other biopolymers but they
cannot digest them. They live on the<br>
>>> waste products of other microbial processes.
The web of metabolic<br>
>>> interactions is well known.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Where I would "hoot out" Dr Karve is his
belief that dung cannot serve as<br>
>>> food for the methanogens because they are
"thrown out" of the body along<br>
>>> with the dung. I don't understand the logic
here.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> Digestion mailing list<br>
>><br>
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>><br>
>> for more information about digestion, see<br>
>> Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br>
>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br>
>> and the Biogas Wiki <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
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><br>
> for more information about digestion, see<br>
> Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br>
> and the Biogas Wiki <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
***<br>
Dr. A.D. Karve<br>
President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)<br>
<br>
*Please change my email address in your records to: <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">adkarve@gmail.com</a>
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End of Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40<br>
****************************************<br>
</blockquote>
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for more information about digestion, see<br>
Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br>
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href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br>
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</blockquote>
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<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
***<br>
Dr. A.D. Karve<br>
President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)<br>
<br>
*Please change my email address in your records to: <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">adkarve@gmail.com</a>
*<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<pre wrap="">
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
_______________________________________________
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to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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for more information about digestion, see
Beginner's Guide to Biogas
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a>
and the Biogas Wiki <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Markus Schlattmann
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