Dear All,<br>Can anyone/or Dr Karve, please guide the list how the gas from wardha plant or AARTHI's biogas plants is measured?<br>its really getting confused because earlier it was 540 cubic meter and now its 400 cubic meter?<br>
The gas generation can be cross checked with the gas measurement systems?<br><br><br><br>regards<br>srinivas kasulla<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 8:55 AM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org">digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40 (Markus Schlattmann)<br>
2. Re: gasyield indigenious cowdung (Amy and Jim Rankin)<br>
3. Re: gasyield indigenious cowdung (Anand Karve)<br>
4. Re: [work] Re: Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40 (David)<br>
5. Re: [work] Re: Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40 (Anand Karve)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 22:28:47 +0200<br>
From: Markus Schlattmann <<a href="mailto:firmen@schlattmann.de">firmen@schlattmann.de</a>><br>
To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion<br>
<<a href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org">digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:4CC5E87F.5090702@schlattmann.de">4CC5E87F.5090702@schlattmann.de</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"<br>
<br>
Hi,<br>
<br>
I still don't believe in those 540 m? from 1000 kg dung. Since we only<br>
just know it "fresh dung", let's try to get a backwards look at it:<br>
<br>
Let's say we have 540 m? biogas (dry gas, 0?C, 1013 mbar like literature<br>
values in german tables, if we want to compare this to values given in<br>
those tables).<br>
<br>
Let's say we have 60% methane, 40% carbon dioxide (here it doesn't<br>
matter anyway: it's not relevant if a C is in CH4 or in CO2)<br>
<br>
So in those 540m? would be 24,1 kmole C.<br>
This corresponds to a mass of about 289 kg.<br>
Considering a C-Content of 43% TS this would lead to a 673 kg fresh matter.<br>
Much to dry for anaerobic digestion.<br>
And this estimation is already done considering ALL of the C from the<br>
substrate (even including all lignin) would be in the biogas. (In own<br>
investigations ~30% of dung material is degradable)<br>
<br>
Please correct me, if you find an error.<br>
<br>
In comparison in literature tables (e.g. FNR(2004)) is given:<br>
cattle liquid manure, TS 8-11%, VS 75-82 %TS, gas yield: 20-30m? per t<br>
fresh matter, 200-500m? per t VS, 60% CH4<br>
cattle (dry) manure, TS ~25%, VS 68-67 %TS, gas yield: 40-50m? per t<br>
fresh matter, 210-300m? per t VS, 60% CH4<br>
this seems reasonable.<br>
<br>
Also the values given by Klaus Peter Hankel in his post today fit into<br>
those values:<br>
<br>
indian bovine manure: 18% DS, 83% vDS, 300 l biogas/kgvDS, 60% CH4<br>
<br>
Since those 540m? come from a batch digestion, I believe that there's a<br>
higher gas yield per VS than in semi-continuous digestion, since there<br>
is a long period with no addition od fresh, easily degradable matter. So<br>
bacteria have the decision: "starve" or "eat lignin" :).<br>
I also made this experience in own investigations of higher degredation<br>
of fibers, but I don't think this effect is that big, even if the<br>
digestion process is performed over 180 days (see estimation of C above).<br>
<br>
If you should come across the original presentation again, please let me<br>
know. I would be interested in the original values and the return of<br>
investment calculations.<br>
<br>
And coming back to P. Hankel's values (lets assume 1000 kg fresh matter):<br>
1000 kg fresh matter<br>
180 kg dry matter<br>
77,4 kg C (assuming my value of 43%TS as given above)<br>
149,4 kg volatile solids<br>
with 300 l/kg VS leading to a total gas of 44,8 m? (in the range of<br>
literature values given above)<br>
44,8 m? Biogas corresponds to 24 kg C in the gas<br>
24 kg in the gas is about 31% of C in the substrate (so this would<br>
confirm my above value of about 30% degradation of dung material)<br>
So these values make a perfect sense to me.<br>
<br>
<br>
Best regards<br>
Markus Schlattmann<br>
<br>
<br>
Am 25.10.2010 16:42, schrieb Anand Karve:<br>
> Dear Markus,<br>
> it was the weight of fresh dung. Apparently, the system that I saw in<br>
> Wardha was new to me, but not new in India. There already exists a<br>
> commercial firm, which constructs similar systems. A colleague of mine<br>
> showed me a recorded presentation of theirs. The presentation contains<br>
> photographs of the system, tables showing return on investment, and<br>
> data of biogas production. Their claims match those made by Centre of<br>
> Science for Villages in Wardha. Dung contains enough carbon, but it is<br>
> mainly in the form of lignin. Unless one assumes that somehow the<br>
> lignin in the dung gets converted into biogas, one cannot explain the<br>
> high biogas yield.<br>
> Yours<br>
> A.D.Karve<br>
><br>
> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 4:57 PM, Markus Schlattmann<br>
> <<a href="mailto:firmen@schlattmann.de">firmen@schlattmann.de</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:firmen@schlattmann.de">firmen@schlattmann.de</a>>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Hi,<br>
><br>
> when you compare the yields based on fresh mass, are you sure<br>
> you're talking about the same "dung"?<br>
><br>
> Here in Central Europe cattle often are kept in stables leading to<br>
> liquid (~8%TS) manure.<br>
> In India perhaps "dung" is "dried dung"?<br>
> Generally, for comapring gas yields of substrates it's better to<br>
> compare gas yields based on VS, not fresh matter, since water<br>
> content may vary a lot.<br>
><br>
> I can't think that there's a production of 18 times more biogas if<br>
> we are talking about comparable dung. You may calculate/estimate a<br>
> C-Balance. If there's one loading, you can't get more C in CH4/CO2<br>
> out of the system than you have put into it with the<br>
> substrate/inoculum in the beginning.<br>
><br>
> Markus Schlattmann<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Am 24.10.2010 11:31, schrieb Anand Karve:<br>
>> Dear Mr. Bapat,<br>
>> the biogas plant in Wardha, which accepts 1000 kg cattle dung as<br>
>> a one-time load and produces daily 3 cubic meter biogas<br>
>> continuously over a period of 180 days, was an absolutely novel<br>
>> system to me. In fact that is why I reported it, because I felt<br>
>> that somebody in the AD discussion group maight know more about<br>
>> it. Since neither the British scientists nor any of the Indian<br>
>> scientists present there could give a scientific explanation to<br>
>> this phenomenon, I have ventured a plausible explanation. The<br>
>> Archaea are a very ancient group of organisms. Lignin is produced<br>
>> by green plants, which evolved much later. Therefore the<br>
>> methanogens cannot digest lignin. The fact that in Wardha, this<br>
>> particular biogas plant was producing almost 18 times as much<br>
>> biogas as would be expected, can be explained by the assumption<br>
>> that lignin was being digested by some other organisms and the<br>
>> products of the lignin digesting organisms were being made<br>
>> available to the mehanogens. But the speculation that some<br>
>> species of organisms conduct extra-cellular digestion of<br>
>> cellulose or lignin, and make the products of such digestion<br>
>> available to the methanogens, is not acceptable to me, because if<br>
>> such were really the case, one would have used such organisms to<br>
>> produce sugars from lignocellulosic material and then obtained<br>
>> alcohol from these sugars. Since nobody has succeeded in doing<br>
>> this, I feel that the organisms that digest cellulose or lignin<br>
>> consume the sugars themselves and multiply their own numbers, and<br>
>> that the methanogens consume these microbes to produce methane. I<br>
>> am ready to accept any other explanation, if it is logical.<br>
>> Yours<br>
>> A.D.Karve<br>
>><br>
>> On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 4:37 PM, Sumedh Bapat<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:sumedh.bapat@gmail.com">sumedh.bapat@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:sumedh.bapat@gmail.com">sumedh.bapat@gmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Dear Dr. Karve,<br>
>> I am sorry to comment on this again but I cannot overlook the<br>
>> discrepancy in the information you have provided here..<br>
>> */ on October 17 you said : /*<br>
>> "In any case, once it is accepted that the methanogenic<br>
>> organisms do not digest the dung directly and that they need<br>
>> the help of other organisms to digest it, one cannot accept<br>
>> that dung is the food of the methanogens. It is like saying<br>
>> that manure applied to a field is human food, because through<br>
>> a number of biological processes it ultimately ends up into<br>
>> products, which the humans eat."<br>
>> */on October 24 you said : /*<br>
>> "According to text book knowledge, 1000 kg dung should have<br>
>> produced about 30,000 litres (or 30 cubic meters) biogas. But<br>
>> this particular biogas plant produces 540 cubic meters of it."<br>
>><br>
>> I also happen to notice that both the subjects refer to cow<br>
>> dung. Now it can be seen that you claim that some other plant<br>
>> is generating 540 times more gas than your plants.<br>
>> Do you mean that this 540 m3 gas that you saw, is produced by<br>
>> Methanogens which have consumed other similar organisms from<br>
>> the biogas plant , which in turn had "eaten" the Cpw Dung ?<br>
>> Can you please explain the sudden Biogas Generation manifold<br>
>> increase from 30 m3 (conventionally known) to 540 m3 ?<br>
>> /Again/ _ Can you please provide a basis for such a finding ?<br>
>> Kind Regards,<br>
>> Sumedh Bapat<br>
>><br>
>> On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 12:30 AM,<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org">digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org">digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
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>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is<br>
>> more specific<br>
>> than "Re: Contents of Digestion digest..."<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Today's Topics:<br>
>><br>
>> 1. Re: Attachment to previous Article - More scientific<br>
>> based<br>
>> research and questions (Anand Karve)<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>><br>
>> Message: 1<br>
>> Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 02:43:13 +0800<br>
>> From: Anand Karve <<a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">adkarve@gmail.com</a><br>
>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">adkarve@gmail.com</a>>><br>
>> To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org">digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org">digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>>><br>
>> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Attachment to previous Article -<br>
>> More<br>
>> scientific based research and questions<br>
>> Message-ID:<br>
>> <AANLkTi=qxog1xd-4Q9JOwVaNpL8S=Bgpc2n=JxY7R5a=@<a href="http://mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">mail.gmail.com</a><br>
>> <<a href="http://mail.gmail.com/" target="_blank">http://mail.gmail.com/</a>>><br>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
>><br>
>> Dear Dr. Martin,<br>
>> I have just returned from a city called Wardha, where I<br>
>> attended a workshop<br>
>> arranged jointly by the Research Councils of UK and the<br>
>> Department of<br>
>> Science and Technology, Government of India. About 20<br>
>> scientists each from<br>
>> UK and India were invited to this meeting.<br>
>> In the course of field visits organised during the<br>
>> workshop, Dr. Soham<br>
>> Pandya, The Director of Centre of Science for Villages,<br>
>> an NGO in Wardha,<br>
>> showed us an amazing biogas plant on his campus. This<br>
>> biogas plant accepts<br>
>> about 1000 kg cattle dung as a one-time load and produces<br>
>> daily about 3<br>
>> cubic meters of biogas, continuously over a period of<br>
>> about 180 days. This<br>
>> is not the only biogas plant constructed by him. Using<br>
>> funds from the<br>
>> Department of Science and Technology, He has constructed<br>
>> a similar biogas<br>
>> plant in another place called Hingoli, where a one-time<br>
>> load of 1000 kg<br>
>> dung yields biogas continuously for 6 months, to run an<br>
>> electricity<br>
>> generator for daily 3 to 4 hours, to provide electric<br>
>> lighting to all the<br>
>> houses in the village. Officials of the Department of<br>
>> Science and<br>
>> Technology vouched for the veracity of these claims.<br>
>> According to text book<br>
>> knowledge, 1000 kg dung should have produced about 30,000<br>
>> litres (or 30<br>
>> cubic meters) biogas. But this particular biogas plant<br>
>> produces 540 cubic<br>
>> meters of it.<br>
>> Neither Dr. Pandya nor any other scientist could give a<br>
>> scientific explanation to this phenomenally high yield of<br>
>> biogas. Dung of<br>
>> Indian cattle consists mainly of lignin (from the veins<br>
>> and midribs of the<br>
>> grass and leaves that they feed on) and micro-organisms.<br>
>> One has to assume<br>
>> in this case, that there are microbes in the dung that<br>
>> feed on the lignin<br>
>> and that the methanogens digested the lignin eating microbes.<br>
>> Yours<br>
>> A.D.Karve<br>
>><br>
>> On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 3:53 PM, Duncan Martin<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:duncanjmartin@gmail.com">duncanjmartin@gmail.com</a><br>
>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:duncanjmartin@gmail.com">duncanjmartin@gmail.com</a>>>wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> > Perhaps Dr Karve & I should agree to disagree?<br>
>> ><br>
>> > To argue that dung is not food for the methanogens<br>
>> because they need help<br>
>> > to digest it is really a semantic quibble. It misses<br>
>> the point I was<br>
>> > responding to - that the digestion process is not<br>
>> *completed *by the act<br>
>> > of defaecation, it is merely *terminated* for the owner<br>
>> of the gut in<br>
>> > question.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > I have never seen any serious literature suggesting<br>
>> that microbes are<br>
>> > altruistic. However, the principles of commensalism are<br>
>> well established and<br>
>> > I see no basis for dismissing them. Moreover, the<br>
>> complex web of metabolic<br>
>> > interactions in AD has been extensively researched and<br>
>> is pretty well<br>
>> > understood - though I am sure there is more to discover.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Nor have I seen any literature whatsoever suggesting<br>
>> that the methanogens<br>
>> > consume other microorganisms. I would be intrigued to<br>
>> see a proposed<br>
>> > mechanism.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > To dismiss all the textbooks as wrong (see previous<br>
>> postings) is unhelpful,<br>
>> > at best. Who could only say that unless he had read<br>
>> every one of them? Of<br>
>> > course, there are mistakes - even in the best books -<br>
>> if only because<br>
>> > science moves on, so any book becomes outdated. And<br>
>> there are indeed some<br>
>> > layman's guides to AD that include some odd ideas - but<br>
>> who would take them<br>
>> > as serious guides to the science?<br>
>> ><br>
>> > When we find such errors, let us use this forum to<br>
>> report them - giving<br>
>> > exact references. But lets not confuse newcomers to the<br>
>> field by dismissing<br>
>> > every other source of information as rubbish.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Finally, let us accept that each of us is entitled to<br>
>> his opinion - but<br>
>> > lets reserve this forum for the fruits of practical<br>
>> experience and<br>
>> > evidence-based information.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > I suggest we draw a line under the present debate.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Duncan Martin, PhD, MCIWM, MIChemE, MIEI<br>
>> > Cloughjordan Ecovillage<br>
>> > Ireland<br>
>> ><br>
>> > On 17 October 2010 16:39, Anand Karve<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">adkarve@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">adkarve@gmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
>> ><br>
>> >> Dear Duncan,<br>
>> >> I dont believe in the theory of a chain of<br>
>> micro-organisms, with one<br>
>> >> species converting the cellulose into glucose, another<br>
>> converting the<br>
>> >> glucose into an organic acid (e.g. citric acid), still<br>
>> another converting<br>
>> >> the organic acid into acetic acid and ultimately the<br>
>> acetic acid being<br>
>> >> converted by the methanogenic organisms into carbon<br>
>> dioxide and methane. If<br>
>> >> this were true, one would have by now isolated the<br>
>> organism that converted<br>
>> >> cellulose into glucose and used the glucose to produce<br>
>> alcohol. Cellulose is<br>
>> >> the most ubiquitously found organic compount in the<br>
>> world and with this<br>
>> >> simple process, one would have produced unlimited<br>
>> quantity of liquid fuel.<br>
>> >> But even today, the conversion of cellulose into<br>
>> glucose is achieved in any<br>
>> >> industrial process by using a cellulolytic enzyme<br>
>> extracted from a<br>
>> >> cellulolytic organism. The reason for this is, that<br>
>> the glucose converted by<br>
>> >> the organism from cellulose is consumed by the same<br>
>> organism. And once it is<br>
>> >> consumed by an organism, it is converted into its cell<br>
>> all the way down to<br>
>> >> carbon dioxide. The micro-organisms in the gut of an<br>
>> animal cannot be<br>
>> >> expected to be so altruistic as to predigest the food<br>
>> and suply it to the<br>
>> >> methanogens. I feel that the methanogenic organisms<br>
>> consume the fellow<br>
>> >> micro-organisms in the gut of animals and digest them<br>
>> to produce methane and<br>
>> >> carbon dioxide. Such dog-eat-dog reactions occur also<br>
>> in the soil supplied<br>
>> >> with organic matter.<br>
>> >> In any case, once it is accepted that the<br>
>> methanogenic organisms<br>
>> >> do not digest the dung directly and that they need the<br>
>> help of other<br>
>> >> organisms to digest it, one cannot accept that dung is<br>
>> the food of the<br>
>> >> methanogens. It is like saying that manure applied to<br>
>> a field is human food,<br>
>> >> because through a number of biological processes it<br>
>> ultimately ends up into<br>
>> >> products, which the humans eat.<br>
>> >> Yours<br>
>> >> A.D.Karve<br>
>> >> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Duncan Martin<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:duncanjmartin@gmail.com">duncanjmartin@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:duncanjmartin@gmail.com">duncanjmartin@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> >> > wrote:<br>
>> >><br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>> Yes, the gut methanogens do, in a sense, eat what the<br>
>> animal eats.<br>
>> >>> However, it would be more accurate to say that their<br>
>> diet is derived from<br>
>> >>> what the animal eats. The methanogens in the gut of a<br>
>> cow are surrounded by<br>
>> >>> celluose and other biopolymers but they cannot digest<br>
>> them. They live on the<br>
>> >>> waste products of other microbial processes. The web<br>
>> of metabolic<br>
>> >>> interactions is well known.<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>> Where I would "hoot out" Dr Karve is his belief that<br>
>> dung cannot serve as<br>
>> >>> food for the methanogens because they are "thrown<br>
>> out" of the body along<br>
>> >>> with the dung. I don't understand the logic here.<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>><br>
>> >> _______________________________________________<br>
>> >> Digestion mailing list<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
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>> >><br>
>> >> for more information about digestion, see<br>
>> >> Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br>
>> >> <a href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/" target="_blank">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br>
>> >> and the Biogas Wiki <a href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/" target="_blank">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> ><br>
>> > _______________________________________________<br>
>> > Digestion mailing list<br>
>> ><br>
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
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>> ><br>
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>> page<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
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>> ><br>
>> > for more information about digestion, see<br>
>> > Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br>
>> > <a href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/" target="_blank">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br>
>> > and the Biogas Wiki <a href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/" target="_blank">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>> ***<br>
>> Dr. A.D. Karve<br>
>> President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)<br>
>><br>
>> *Please change my email address in your records to:<br>
>> <a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">adkarve@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">adkarve@gmail.com</a>> *<br>
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>><br>
>> ------------------------------<br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> Digestion mailing list<br>
>><br>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
>> <a href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
>><br>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
>> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>><br>
>> for more information about digestion, see<br>
>> Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br>
>> <a href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/" target="_blank">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br>
>> and the Biogas Wiki <a href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/" target="_blank">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> End of Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40<br>
>> ****************************************<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> Digestion mailing list<br>
>><br>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
>> <a href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
>><br>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
>> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>><br>
>> for more information about digestion, see<br>
>> Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br>
>> <a href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/" target="_blank">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br>
>> and the Biogas Wiki <a href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/" target="_blank">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>> ***<br>
>> Dr. A.D. Karve<br>
>> President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)<br>
>><br>
>> *Please change my email address in your records to:<br>
>> <a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">adkarve@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">adkarve@gmail.com</a>> *<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> Digestion mailing list<br>
>><br>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
>> <a href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
>><br>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
>> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>><br>
>> for more information about digestion, see<br>
>> Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br>
>> <a href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/" target="_blank">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br>
>> and the Biogas Wikihttp://<a href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/" target="_blank">biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br>
>><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
><br>
> Mit freundlichen Gr??en,<br>
> Markus Schlattmann<br>
><br>
> --------------------------------------<br>
> schlattmann sustainables<br>
> <a href="http://schlattmann.de" target="_blank">schlattmann.de</a> <<a href="http://schlattmann.de/" target="_blank">http://schlattmann.de/</a>><br>
><br>
> Dipl.-Ing. agr. Markus Schlattmann<br>
> Gr?nseiboldsdorfer Weg 5<br>
> 85416 Langenbach<br>
><br>
> Tel.: +49 (0)8761 72162-60<br>
> Fax.: +49 (0)8761 72162-61<br>
><br>
> E-Mail: firmen@schlattmann de<br>
> Web:<a href="http://www.schlattmann.de" target="_blank">www.schlattmann.de</a> <<a href="http://www.schlattmann.de/" target="_blank">http://www.schlattmann.de/</a>><br>
> -------------------------------------<br>
><br>
> Die Informationen in dieser E-Mail und im Anhang sind vertraulich und<br>
> nur f?r den/die benannten Empf?nger bestimmt. ?ffnen, Nutzen oder<br>
> Verbreiten durch unautorisierte Personen ist untersagt. Falls Sie nicht<br>
> der Empf?nger oder eine entsprechend autorisierte Person sind,<br>
> informieren Sie bitte den Absender und vernichten Sie die Nachricht.<br>
><br>
><br>
> The information in this email and in any attachment is confidential and<br>
> intended only for the attention and use of the recipient(s) as<br>
> addressed. It must not be disclosed, used or disseminated by any<br>
> unauthorized person. If you are not the intended recipient or<br>
> accordingly authorized, please contact the sender and delete the<br>
> message.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Digestion mailing list<br>
><br>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
> <a href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
><br>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
><br>
> for more information about digestion, see<br>
> Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br>
> <a href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/" target="_blank">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br>
> and the Biogas Wiki <a href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/" target="_blank">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> ***<br>
> Dr. A.D. Karve<br>
> President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)<br>
><br>
> *Please change my email address in your records to: <a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">adkarve@gmail.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">adkarve@gmail.com</a>> *<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Digestion mailing list<br>
><br>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
> <a href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a><br>
><br>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
><br>
> for more information about digestion, see<br>
> Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br>
> <a href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/" target="_blank">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br>
> and the Biogas Wiki <a href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/" target="_blank">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
<br>
Mit freundlichen Gr??en,<br>
Markus Schlattmann<br>
<br>
--------------------------------------<br>
schlattmann sustainables<br>
<a href="http://schlattmann.de" target="_blank">schlattmann.de</a><br>
<br>
Dipl.-Ing. agr. Markus Schlattmann<br>
Gr?nseiboldsdorfer Weg 5<br>
85416 Langenbach<br>
<br>
Tel.: +49 (0)8761 72162-60<br>
Fax.: +49 (0)8761 72162-61<br>
<br>
E-Mail: firmen@schlattmann de<br>
Web:<a href="http://www.schlattmann.de" target="_blank">www.schlattmann.de</a><br>
-------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Die Informationen in dieser E-Mail und im Anhang sind vertraulich und<br>
nur f?r den/die benannten Empf?nger bestimmt. ?ffnen, Nutzen oder<br>
Verbreiten durch unautorisierte Personen ist untersagt. Falls Sie nicht<br>
der Empf?nger oder eine entsprechend autorisierte Person sind,<br>
informieren Sie bitte den Absender und vernichten Sie die Nachricht.<br>
<br>
<br>
The information in this email and in any attachment is confidential and<br>
intended only for the attention and use of the recipient(s) as<br>
addressed. It must not be disclosed, used or disseminated by any<br>
unauthorized person. If you are not the intended recipient or<br>
accordingly authorized, please contact the sender and delete the<br>
message.<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 15:32:05 -0500<br>
From: "Amy and Jim Rankin" <<a href="mailto:ajrankin@hughes.net">ajrankin@hughes.net</a>><br>
To: "For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion"<br>
<<a href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org">digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Digestion] gasyield indigenious cowdung<br>
Message-ID: <8E3EDE97467C41C79E09B32310B756C6@RankinPC><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";<br>
reply-type=original<br>
<br>
<br>
><br>
> 540 M3 from 1000 Kg of cow dung ?<br>
> Is it possible that there is an error in measurement ? OR an enthusiastic<br>
> overstatement by the gentleman ?<br>
> ( If cow dung or the flora present in /alongwith it had so much of energy<br>
> value ,,,, it would create so many possibilities )<br>
<br>
While I have nothing to compare that value to, I assume that this is a<br>
"batch" process digester, has a very long retention time and very likely has<br>
only a small amount of water included to maximise the digestable content of<br>
the system. It is unlikely that the gas yield can be compared to<br>
continuously fed - flow through digesters (which usually have higher water<br>
content requirements and become economically prohibitive to build for<br>
comparable retention times). In other words, completely the opposite of the<br>
sugar/highly digestable substrate type digester Dr Karve deals with and very<br>
different from most other digesters as well.<br>
<br>
Our experience with a highly and rapidly digestable substrate, cheese whey,<br>
shows the expected tendency to rapicly acidify and pickle the digester if<br>
the loading rate is increased rapidly. The best solution at hand seems to<br>
be reinnoculation with cattle manure slurry at regular intervals as well as<br>
maintenance of a minimal feed rate in the off season as much as possible to<br>
avoid starting from zero when the cheese plant opens up full capacity in the<br>
winter time. The rate of operation in the off season is not strictly<br>
profitable, but is being tried this year for several reasons including<br>
maintenance of the digester function.<br>
<br>
We have some experience using cheese whey as fertilizer and have never seen<br>
any great benefit to the grass it was applied to beyond the small<br>
protein/Nitrogen content. Perhaps the level of salt ( NaCl ) included has<br>
some inhibitory effect on the soil microbes and prevent their rapid growth<br>
or perhaps the compaction caused by the trucks applying the whey was a<br>
problem. In some instances the grass was burned by the application of the<br>
whey and took some time to recover, so any or all of these could be<br>
confusing factors that prevent seeing the result of the lactose sugar<br>
applied.<br>
<br>
Jim<br>
<br>
James R Rankin, DVM<br>
Cedarcrest Farms, Inc<br>
Faunsdale, Alabama USA<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 3<br>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 08:36:54 +0800<br>
From: Anand Karve <<a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">adkarve@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion<br>
<<a href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org">digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Digestion] gasyield indigenious cowdung<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:AANLkTinA91pO%2B5_vrjk6G0y06HdXedd7QROY86S05MRb@mail.gmail.com">AANLkTinA91pO+5_vrjk6G0y06HdXedd7QROY86S05MRb@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
Dear Mr. Hankel,<br>
I had already reported that there was a firm in India, which constructed<br>
biogas plants of this type. The figures calculated from the data presented<br>
by the firm showed that it took 2.5 kg dung to generate 1 cubic meter of<br>
biogas. Based on this calculation, one would get about 400 cubic meters of<br>
biogas from 1000 kg dung . This is also an unbelievably high value. The firm<br>
recommends emptying and refilling the digester once every 4 to 5 months and<br>
not 6 months.<br>
I think that the dung used in the biogas plant in Centre of Science for<br>
Villages in Wardha could have been stored outside over a certain period of<br>
time, so that it lost some moisture. Secondly, when the dung is collected<br>
from the stall, it also contains a certain quantity of straw and fodder<br>
residues. I don't think that it was accurately weighed before filling it<br>
into the biogas plant. The 1000 kg weight of dung reported to us was an<br>
approximation, based on the size of the digester tank.<br>
Yours<br>
A.D.Karve<br>
<br>
On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 11:21 PM, klauspeter Hankel <<a href="mailto:kapehankel@gmx.de">kapehankel@gmx.de</a>>wrote:<br>
<br>
> I suggest, please calculate based on ...<br>
> indian bovine manure: 18% DS, 83% vDS, 300 l biogas/kgvDS, 60% CH4<br>
><br>
> and better check the DS and also sometimes the vDS (because of sand and<br>
> soil, if you buy by weight)<br>
><br>
> warm regards / mit herzlichen Gruessen<br>
><br>
> Klaus Peter Hankel<br>
><br>
><br>
> Message: 1<br>
> Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 19:04:35 +0530<br>
> From: Awadhoot Bapat <<a href="mailto:abjobapat@gmail.com">abjobapat@gmail.com</a>><br>
> To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion<br>
> <<a href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org">digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40<br>
> Message-ID:<br>
> <AANLkTi=SQL-3McMa7rnywmCxqLFtubX=<a href="mailto:geJ8fMaiU09C@mail.gmail.com">geJ8fMaiU09C@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
><br>
> Dear All ,<br>
><br>
> 540 M3 from 1000 Kg of cow dung ?<br>
> Is it possible that there is an error in measurement ? OR an enthusiastic<br>
> overstatement by the gentleman ?<br>
> ( If cow dung or the flora present in /alongwith it had so much of energy<br>
> value ,,,, it would create so many possibilities )<br>
><br>
> Regards,<br>
> Avadhut Bapat<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 2:27 PM, Markus Schlattmann<br>
> <<a href="mailto:firmen@schlattmann.de">firmen@schlattmann.de</a>>wrote:<br>
><br>
> > Hi,<br>
> ><br>
> > when you compare the yields based on fresh mass, are you sure you're<br>
> > talking about the same "dung"?<br>
> ><br>
> > Here in Central Europe cattle often are kept in stables leading to liquid<br>
> > (~8%TS) manure.<br>
> > In India perhaps "dung" is "dried dung"?<br>
> > Generally, for comapring gas yields of substrates it's better to compare<br>
> > gas yields based on VS, not fresh matter, since water content may vary a<br>
> > lot.<br>
> ><br>
> > I can't think that there's a production of 18 times more biogas if we are<br>
> > talking about comparable dung. You may calculate/estimate a C-Balance. If<br>
> > there's one loading, you can't get more C in CH4/CO2 out of the system<br>
> than<br>
> > you have put into it with the substrate/inoculum in the beginning.<br>
> ><br>
> > Markus Schlattmann<br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Digestion mailing list<br>
><br>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
> <a href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a><br>
><br>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
><br>
> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
><br>
> for more information about digestion, see<br>
> Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br>
> <a href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/" target="_blank">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br>
> and the Biogas Wiki <a href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/" target="_blank">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br>
><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
***<br>
Dr. A.D. Karve<br>
President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)<br>
<br>
*Please change my email address in your records to: <a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">adkarve@gmail.com</a> *<br>
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------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 4<br>
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 18:55:46 -0700<br>
From: David <<a href="mailto:david@h4c.org">david@h4c.org</a>><br>
To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion<br>
<<a href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org">digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Digestion] [work] Re: Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:4CC63522.20008@h4c.org">4CC63522.20008@h4c.org</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"<br>
<br>
<br>
Friends,<br>
<br>
<br>
On 10/25/2010 1:28 PM, Markus Schlattmann wrote:<br>
> I still don't believe in those 540 m? from 1000 kg dung....<br>
<br>
A sensible analysis. Maybe the key to the conundrum is the statement:<br>
<br>
> ...the biogas plant in Wardha... accepts 1000 kg cattle dung as a<br>
> one-time load and produces daily 3 cubic meter biogas continuously<br>
> over a period of 180 days...<br>
<br>
It is well known that batch digestion does not produce the same amount<br>
of biogas every day. Obviously it takes some time for the ecology of<br>
the digester to get established (during which time, of course, gas<br>
production is low), and it is surely something approaching a law of<br>
biology that the more digestible components of the substrate will be<br>
used up first, and then some of the more recalcitrant materials will--<br>
eventually-- be digested. The succession of these stages offers a<br>
well-known curve, which is either bell-shaped, if it plots daily<br>
production, or a long S (ogee) curve if we are plotting cumulative<br>
production.<br>
<br>
In sum, I have no doubt that biogas is produced, and that for a period<br>
of time production is good. Thus I would accept that the reported<br>
plants produce well for a time, but not that they produce the same<br>
amount every day, continuously for six months. But surely the<br>
statement as quoted has to do with genuine enthusiasm, and should not<br>
be taken as a rigorous mathematical description.<br>
<br>
<br>
While my search turned up a number of references to the organization<br>
in Wardha in connection with biogas, none provided any reference to<br>
these batch digesters, unless they are very large clay pots, as one<br>
reference mentions. It would be salutary to have some literature on<br>
the subject, if any has been produced.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
David William House<br>
"The Complete Biogas Handbook" |<a href="http://www.completebiogas.com" target="_blank">www.completebiogas.com</a>|<br>
/Vahid Biogas/, an alternative energy consultancy |<a href="http://www.vahidbiogas.com" target="_blank">www.vahidbiogas.com</a><br>
<br>
|<br>
"Make no search for water. But find thirst,<br>
And water from the very ground will burst."<br>
(Rumi, a Persian mystic poet, quoted in /Delight of Hearts/, p. 77)<br>
<br>
<a href="http://bahai.us/" target="_blank">http://bahai.us/</a><br>
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<br>
Message: 5<br>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 11:25:32 +0800<br>
From: Anand Karve <<a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">adkarve@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:david@h4c.org">david@h4c.org</a>, For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion<br>
<<a href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org">digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Digestion] [work] Re: Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40<br>
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Dear All,<br>
Dr. Soham Pandya, the Director of Centre of Science for Villages, told us<br>
that the biogas generating system being demonstrated at his Institute was<br>
meant for using the dung of a single cow. One accumulates the dung for 6<br>
months, and then loads all of it at once into the biogas digester, as a<br>
one-time feedstock. An Indian cow would produce daily about 6 kg dung.<br>
Therefore, accumulation of 180 days' produce explains the1000 kg that goes<br>
into the digester all at once. The biogas emanating from the digester is<br>
stored by him in a moving drum type gas holder, which floats on water. He<br>
has made this arrangement firstly to be able to deliver the gas to an<br>
electricity generator under a constant pressure, and secondly to know how<br>
much gas is produced daily.<br>
My own explanation of this phenomenon is as follows: I assume that some of<br>
the micro-organisms in the alimentary canal of herbivorous animals have the<br>
capacity to digest lignin. I also assume that normally their number is quite<br>
low, but in a system, in which only lignin is left after a certain period of<br>
time, the lignin decomposing organisms are the only ones that can survive<br>
and multiply. Therefore, from this point onwards, it is the lignin that<br>
keeps the biogas production going. The lignin digesting organisms must be<br>
rather slow in digesting lignin, because it takes them about 4 to 5 months<br>
to digest the lignin left in the system.<br>
Yours<br>
A.D.Karve<br>
<br>
On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 9:55 AM, David <<a href="mailto:david@h4c.org">david@h4c.org</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
><br>
> Friends,<br>
><br>
><br>
> On 10/25/2010 1:28 PM, Markus Schlattmann wrote:<br>
><br>
> I still don't believe in those 540 m? from 1000 kg dung....<br>
><br>
><br>
> A sensible analysis. Maybe the key to the conundrum is the statement:<br>
><br>
> ...the biogas plant in Wardha... accepts 1000 kg cattle dung as a one-time<br>
> load and produces daily 3 cubic meter biogas continuously over a period of<br>
> 180 days...<br>
><br>
><br>
> It is well known that batch digestion does not produce the same amount of<br>
> biogas every day. Obviously it takes some time for the ecology of the<br>
> digester to get established (during which time, of course, gas production is<br>
> low), and it is surely something approaching a law of biology that the more<br>
> digestible components of the substrate will be used up first, and then some<br>
> of the more recalcitrant materials will-- eventually-- be digested. The<br>
> succession of these stages offers a well-known curve, which is either<br>
> bell-shaped, if it plots daily production, or a long S (ogee) curve if we<br>
> are plotting cumulative production.<br>
><br>
> In sum, I have no doubt that biogas is produced, and that for a period of<br>
> time production is good. Thus I would accept that the reported plants<br>
> produce well for a time, but not that they produce the same amount every<br>
> day, continuously for six months. But surely the statement as quoted has to<br>
> do with genuine enthusiasm, and should not be taken as a rigorous<br>
> mathematical description.<br>
><br>
><br>
> While my search turned up a number of references to the organization in<br>
> Wardha in connection with biogas, none provided any reference to these batch<br>
> digesters, unless they are very large clay pots, as one reference mentions.<br>
> It would be salutary to have some literature on the subject, if any has been<br>
> produced.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> David William House<br>
> "The Complete Biogas Handbook" <a href="http://www.completebiogas.com" target="_blank">www.completebiogas.com</a><br>
> *Vahid Biogas*, an alternative energy consultancy <a href="http://www.vahidbiogas.com" target="_blank">www.vahidbiogas.com</a><br>
><br>
> "Make no search for water. But find thirst,<br>
> And water from the very ground will burst."<br>
> (Rumi, a Persian mystic poet, quoted in *Delight of Hearts*, p. 77)<br>
><br>
> <a href="http://bahai.us/" target="_blank">http://bahai.us/</a><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
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><br>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
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><br>
> for more information about digestion, see<br>
> Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br>
> <a href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/" target="_blank">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br>
> and the Biogas Wiki <a href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/" target="_blank">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
***<br>
Dr. A.D. Karve<br>
President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)<br>
<br>
*Please change my email address in your records to: <a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">adkarve@gmail.com</a> *<br>
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<br>
for more information about digestion, see<br>
Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br>
<a href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/" target="_blank">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br>
and the Biogas Wiki <a href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/" target="_blank">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
End of Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 46<br>
****************************************<br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>SRINIVAS KASULLA<br>09004689601<br>09869179601<br>