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<DIV><FONT size=2 face="Arial Narrow">Great point on the lack of an imperative
to remove CO2. We are working on projects that will feed methane (with
CO@) to large gas turbines. Very economical.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face="Arial Narrow"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face="Arial Narrow">Randy Mott</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face="Arial Narrow">CEERES</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face="Arial Narrow">Warsaw</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=alex@sistemabiobolsa.com
href="mailto:alex@sistemabiobolsa.com">Alexander Eaton</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org">For Discussion of Anaerobic
Digestion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November 23, 2010 6:29
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Digestion] Compressing of
biogas</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>At our scale, CO2 filtration is ruled our because it requires
high inputs of chemicals or energy (which can be justified potentially under
large scales), and the benefit it really just space, as the CO2 does not
significantly hamper the combustion process. If CO2 filtration were
easier, carbon sequestration projects would have gained more traction by
now. <BR><BR>Methane is similar to other gases, but yet so
different. As the most simple hydrocarbon, it has the most energy per
unit of mass, but the least amount of energy per unit of space. Picture
one carbon with four hydrogens poking out in all directions, versus a tight
string of carbon bonds as found in other hydrocarbons. With methane the
hydrogens slightly repel each other, and therefore, methane dose not "like" to
be compressed. Even natural gas, mostly methane, is not generally
compressed to the degree of say, propane, which is even liquefied. There
are obviously LNG projects, but again, scale is the key driver.
<BR><BR>Maybe there are new technological options, but at my last look, it
required between 2 to 3 units of energy to bottle about 10 units of energy
worth of methane at a pressure that would give you any useful volume.
That math gets worse with 40% CO2. Scale changes everything, and there
are biogas transportation projects. Investing the energy into filtration
(high pressure water systems can take out CO2) and compression will still
leave you energy positive, and the energy was still originated from
waste. So, here I am specifically talking about being discouraged by
smaller systems. <BR><BR>When one looks at the properties of biogas, and
the conditions of small biogas plants, the lowest entropy solution is
low-pressure, on-site use. All options within this range should be
exhausted before other options are considered. The caveat to this would
be micro biogas grids. Biogas can be transported readily in pipes, and
there are simple blowers that can make that happen relatively
efficiently. A low pressure simple pipeline being fed by one medium to
large plant, or a few smaller plants could also be a reality. The longer
pipeline option is less of an option when you have limited buy-in and must
cross other people's land or roads in the process.
<BR><BR>Saludos,<BR><BR>Alex <BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 10:03 AM, Reuben Deumling <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:9watts@gmail.com">9watts@gmail.com</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>Can you say a bit more about <BR>- why separating out the
CO2 is ruled out? and<BR>- why if methane 'does not like to be compressed'
so many other similar gases are compressed regularly?<BR><BR>Perhaps I'm
missing something. <BR>I do appreciate the transport ideas without
compression or a pipeline. <BR><FONT color=#888888><BR>Reuben
Deumling</FONT>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=h5><BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 8:58 AM, Alexander Eaton
<SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:alex@sistemabiobolsa.com"
target=_blank>alex@sistemabiobolsa.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>We go around this issue frequently, as end users often
come up with the same idea. It is hard to tell them no, so we always
take a fresh look under the circumstances. At the end of the day
filtration of CO2 i always ruled out, and that means 40% of the volume of
gas you are compressing serves no energetic purpose. Add that to the
fact that methane does not like to be compressed, and we arrive again at a
"no" response. <BR><BR>The one option we always examine is the
non-compressed transportation of large gas reservoirs. This we have
tried for distances that are too long for a simple gas line, and short
enough to be practical by cart. Since we can make durable gas
reservoirs of any size and shape, this is not unfeasible. Once
transported, the gas is connected and used as usual, while a second
reservoir is filling. If you can create value for this use, and the
transport logistics to not out-weight the value of the energy provided,
you may have an option for success. Others have used large truck
inner-tubes in the same way, that are then rolled down the street to the
end use. I suspect that in certain locations, systems that
considered low-pressure distribution could gain some traction.
<BR><BR>Saludos,<BR><BR>A <BR>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 6:21 AM, Vianney Tumwesige
<SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:trustvianney@gmail.com"
target=_blank>trustvianney@gmail.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>Hello Harold,<BR><BR>I completely agree withYvonne, it
will be economically expensive to compress the gas.<BR><BR>P.S. Yvonne,
could you send me a copy of the paper and ppt as well? <BR><BR>Best
regards<BR><BR>
<DIV style="DISPLAY: inline"></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 1:49 PM, Harold leffertstra <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:haroldleffertstra@yahoo.no"
target=_blank>haroldleffertstra@yahoo.no</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR></DIV></DIV>
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class=gmail_quote>
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<DIV></DIV>
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<DIV>hello</DIV>
<DIV>Got a question from the owner of a small biogass
plant in Tanzania.</DIV>
<DIV>He is expanding a small existing biogas plant to be
able to digest waste from 200 households and manure from
100 cows. </DIV>
<DIV>He is interested in using the biogas for fueling
vehicles. In our part of the world we think it will be
necessary with cleaning, uppgrading of the
gas and compressing.</DIV>
<DIV>Do any of you have experience/ideas about whether
this is feasible for such a small plant?</DIV>
<DIV>1)What is necessary to use the biogas for fueling
vehicles and 2) what are the technical and economical
consequences?</DIV>
<DIV>Thank you</DIV>
<DIV>Harold Leffertstra</DIV>
<DIV>Senior Advisor</DIV>
<DIV>Norwegian Climate and Pollution Agency</DIV>
<DIV>Oslo </DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR></DIV></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>Digestion
mailing list<BR><BR>to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<BR><A href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>Digestion@bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>to UNSUBSCRIBE
or Change your List Settings use the web page<BR><A
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>for
more information about digestion, see<BR>Beginner's Guide to
Biogas<BR><A href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/"
target=_blank>http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</A><BR>and the Biogas
Wiki <A href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/"
target=_blank>http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</A><BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><FONT
color=#888888><BR><BR clear=all><BR>-- <BR>Vianney Tumwesige<BR>
<DIV style="DISPLAY: inline"></DIV>
<DIV style="DISPLAY: inline"></DIV>Director - Green Heat (U) Ltd
<IMG alt=Picture src="" width=20 height=20><BR>P.O. Box
10235<BR>Kampala-Uganda<BR>256 (0) 71 237 9889<BR>
<DIV style="DISPLAY: inline"></DIV><BR>"The more people are self
sufficient in cooking fuel, the more personal and financial freedom they
have." - Emma Casson<BR>
<DIV style="DISPLAY: inline"></DIV><BR><A
href="http://trustvianney.wordpress.com/" target=_blank><BR></A>
<DIV style="DISPLAY: inline"></DIV>
<DIV
style="DISPLAY: inline"></DIV><BR></FONT><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Digestion
mailing list<BR><BR>to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<BR><A href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>Digestion@bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>to UNSUBSCRIBE or
Change your List Settings use the web page<BR><A
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>for
more information about digestion, see<BR>Beginner's Guide to
Biogas<BR><A href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/"
target=_blank>http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</A><BR>and the Biogas
Wiki <A href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/"
target=_blank>http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</A><BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR
clear=all><BR>-- <BR></DIV></DIV>Alexander Eaton<BR>Sistema
Biobolsa<BR>IRRI-Mexico<BR>RedBioLAC<BR><BR>Mex cel: (55) 11522786<BR>US
cel: 970 275 4505<BR><BR><A href="mailto:alex@irrimexico.org"
target=_blank>alex@irrimexico.org</A><BR><A
href="mailto:alex@sistemabiobolsa.com"
target=_blank>alex@sistemabiobolsa.com</A><BR><BR><A
href="http://sistemabiobolsa.com"
target=_blank>sistemabiobolsa.com</A><BR><A
href="http://www.irrimexico.org"
target=_blank>www.irrimexico.org</A><BR><A href="http://www.redbiolac.org"
target=_blank>www.redbiolac.org</A><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Digestion
mailing list<BR><BR>to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<BR><A href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>Digestion@bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>to UNSUBSCRIBE or
Change your List Settings use the web page<BR><A
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>for
more information about digestion, see<BR>Beginner's Guide to Biogas<BR><A
href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/"
target=_blank>http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</A><BR>and the Biogas
Wiki <A href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/"
target=_blank>http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</A><BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Digestion
mailing list<BR><BR>to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<BR><A
href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>to
UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<BR><A
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>for
more information about digestion, see<BR>Beginner's Guide to Biogas<BR><A
href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/"
target=_blank>http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</A><BR>and the Biogas Wiki
<A href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/"
target=_blank>http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</A><BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR
clear=all><BR>-- <BR>Alexander Eaton<BR>Sistema
Biobolsa<BR>IRRI-Mexico<BR>RedBioLAC<BR><BR>Mex cel: (55) 11522786<BR>US cel:
970 275 4505<BR><BR><A href="mailto:alex@irrimexico.org"
target=_blank>alex@irrimexico.org</A><BR><A
href="mailto:alex@sistemabiobolsa.com"
target=_blank>alex@sistemabiobolsa.com</A><BR><BR><A
href="http://sistemabiobolsa.com" target=_blank>sistemabiobolsa.com</A><BR><A
href="http://www.irrimexico.org" target=_blank>www.irrimexico.org</A><BR><A
href="http://www.redbiolac.org" target=_blank>www.redbiolac.org</A><BR><BR>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>Digestion mailing
list<BR><BR>to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<BR>Digestion@bioenergylists.org<BR><BR>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your
List Settings use the web
page<BR>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org<BR><BR>for
more information about digestion, see<BR>Beginner's Guide to
Biogas<BR>http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/<BR>and the Biogas Wiki
http://biogas.wikispaces.com/<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>