<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div style="color: black; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; ">Dear Alexander, dear all,</div><div style="color: black; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; "><br></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif" size="3">Even without subsidies on fossil fuel extraction and processing, you could argue that fossil fuels are </font><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif">artificially</font><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif" size="3"> cheap as nobody pays for the full cost. The full cost would include all the externalities that are currently not paid for, for instance,
pollution, political unrest, climate change, smog and all the related health costs. </font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif" size="3"><br></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif">Then, as suggested to take an holistic perspective, it is those people in the third world, who do not pollute, are stuck with the consequences of climate change to the greatest degree. That might even be the same people that have a hard time making a living in the third world because of our subsidies on certain crops.</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif"><br></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif">Hence, when taking a holistic perspective, considering externalities, there is a good case to assume that fossil fuels are artificially
cheap.</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif"><br></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif"><br></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif"><br></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif"><br></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif"><br></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif"><br></font></div><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black; "><br><div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Alexander Eaton
<alex@sistemabiobolsa.com><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion <digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wed, January 19, 2011 6:39:28 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Digestion] Biogas conversation rates<br></font><br>Brent, I don't want to gang up on you, but the idea that fossil fuel is free is really a hard concept to grasp. The days of Texas crude bubbling out of the ground have been over for a long time. Maybe, once billions are spent on research, survey's, permits, drilling, extracting, ground pressurization, military action, security forces, refining, and dealing with the toxic byproducts, the oil it self is free. It is artificially, cheap because some of those costs are absorbed by tax payers, and therefore the companies commercializing the petroleum can sell it for
less. These are simple truths of the industry that anyone in the petroleum industry could share with you. The records that Steve shared regarding subsides is dated, but you find that those numbers are far larger today, especially for fossil fuel. Just the tax breaks for the larges fossil fuel producers dwarfs any subsidies available for renewable energy (e.g. AD). <br>
<br><div>"In the US, the current regime is propping up alternate energy with
unsustainable subsidies, while at the same time, stopping the
production of domestic fossil fuels."<br><br>Sure, there is some support for renewable energy, but not a lot, and certainly not more than petroleum, nuclear, and other energy sources that will not provide sustainable, safe and clean energy production in the future. Many new technologies need help to get established. I have been conducting feasibility studies for the REAP program for AD projects in the US, and thankfully that support has been there to help some really good projects get off the ground. The idea is that volume and "lessons learned" will make the technology more competitive. Would you not have appreciated technical and financial support 20 years ago when your AD system was installed? If 50% of the system had been paid for and you had realized additional savings by having strong R&D behind you, you systems would have made your farm more economically successful. Are we not on the same page here?
<br>
<br>Another thing that would make clean technology more competitive would be fossil fuel not receiving such cost support. It is also not a fair characterization of the "regime" to say they have been against domestic fuels, as they have proposed offshore drilling for the first time in many locations and have not posed additional regulations in other areas. <br>
<br>We are not saying domestic fossil fuel sources should not be used, but rather as Steve said, there should be triage. Agriculture and vital services should have priority, instead of, say, the high school kid that circles my block 15 times a day in his parents Escalade, some very inefficient (efficient here meaning use of energy per cubic foot and the ability to retain heat) housing stock, and nearly 25% of household energy use powering phantom loads that are not actually being used. Without much effort we could demonstrate many examples of inefficient energy use, that should not offend you. Obesity in the US is an example of wasteful energy use as well, given that food is energy. When I speak about efficiency, I am referring to the amount of energy that goes into a process as compared to the desired outcome, work, or value you are trying to get from the process. <br>
<br>I would also encourage you to do some reading about food exports to the developing world, and the damage it has done to local production. In short: grains enter the market at prices lower than local farmers can produce the same grains for. This makes there farms less profitable, and therefore they are unable to invest further in their production. Sustained periods of this put some farmers out of business. With less local farmers, the market become more dependent on the imported grains, and so on. In this debate, I would encourage you to not characterize all third world farmers as subsistence, and there is a strong small-farm commercial industry that is very important to the economies of these countries.<br>
<br>I hope this has addressed the basis behind "artificially cheap fossil fuel
production", and why the disparity between industrial and developing world contexts can lead to unhealthy imbalances (i.e. illegal immigration). The main point here is that efficiency should be everyone's friend, and politically, it is a very conservative (right) concept. <br>
<br>A <br><br>Please notice the lack of multiple ?? or !!. Lets talk, not "yell". <br> <br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 1:57 PM, bingham <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:bingham@zekes.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:bingham@zekes.com">bingham@zekes.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-left:1ex;">
<div>
<div><font face="Corbel" size="2">Ruben,</font></div>
<div><font face="Corbel" size="2">???? was not stuck!!!</font></div>
<div><font face="Corbel" size="2">It seems you are avoiding answering the
question by asking a question, a rouse used by those who do not like
the answer ??</font></div>
<div><font face="Corbel" size="2">It also seems you have missed the central claim?
Or you are using a tactic of smoke a mirrors to obfuscate the primes of the
thread to which I responded,</font></div>
<div>i.e.. "Anaerobic Digestions and the AD industry, which is currently
undermined by artificially cheap fossil fuel production and use (not a political
statement)".</div>
<div>I will help you back to the point: "artificially cheap fossil fuel
production". How is it "artificially cheap"????</div>AD has proven it has a place in the overall
energy system. It is not now practical in all applications.
<div><font face="Corbel" size="2">B</font></div><font color="#888888">
<div><font face="Corbel" size="2"></font> </div>
</font><blockquote style="border-left:2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);padding-left:5px;padding-right:0px;margin-left:5px;margin-right:0px;"><div class="im">
<div style="font:10pt arial;">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="font:10pt arial;background:none repeat scroll 0% 0% rgb(228, 228, 228);"><b>From:</b>
<a rel="nofollow" title="9watts@gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:9watts@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:9watts@gmail.com">Reuben Deumling</a>
</div>
</div><div class="im"><div style="font:10pt arial;"><b>To:</b> <a rel="nofollow" title="digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org" ymailto="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org">For Discussion of Anaerobic
Digestion</a> </div>
</div><div class="im"><div style="font:10pt arial;"><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 19, 2011 1:09
PM</div>
<div style="font:10pt arial;"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Digestion] Biogas
conversation rates</div>
<div><br></div></div><div><div></div><div class="h5">Brent,<br><br>your question-mark key is stuck.<br><br>But back
to your central claim, if fossil fuels are free-as-is I'm not sure why you are
worrying about a payback on your AD system. Something doesn't compute.
<br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 12:04 PM, bingham <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:bingham@zekes.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:bingham@zekes.com">bingham@zekes.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left:1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;" class="gmail_quote">
<div><font face="Corbel" size="2"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Fossil fuel sits in the ground and is FREE as is. You
cannot make free any cheaper.</font></font><br></div></blockquote></div>
</div></div><p>
</p><hr><div class="im">
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more information about digestion, see<br>Beginner's Guide to
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<br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Alexander Eaton<br>Sistema Biobolsa<br>IRRI-Mexico<br>RedBioLAC<br><br>Mex cel: (55) 11522786<br>US cel: 970 275 4505<br><br><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:alex@irrimexico.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:alex@irrimexico.org">alex@irrimexico.org</a><br>
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