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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>We fully support AD and it is efficient in many
applications where energy options are limited. I challenge you on
your</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>statement "<FONT size=3
face="Times New Roman">Anaerobic Digestions and the AD industry, which is
currently undermined by artificially cheap fossil fuel production and use (not a
political statement)". I believe it IS a political statement.
Fossil fuel sits in the ground and is FREE as is. You cannot make free any
cheaper.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>Who is the judge of what is wasteful energy use? I
believe assuming energy use in the industrialized world is wasteful ,is
political.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>We put our first AD unit in place in 1963 as a way
to lower the odor from one of our hog operations. It took almost</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>20 years for it to pay back just its initial
construction costs, using the cost of the LP Gas (Propane) it replaced. Our
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>accountant said it never actually paid back
its true cost because of the cost to operate,and maintain the AD unit. Much
less</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>the cost to convert all of </FONT><FONT size=2
face=Corbel>the buildings over to the lower grade gas. Based on this it was
never cost effective or efficient.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>Our next AD units were used prefabricated
fiber glass tanks at a different location. The payback was faster and the
process design was different.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>I agree "<FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">AD is
an incredible renewable energy source, but one that should teach us to value
energy and inherently become champions of energy efficiency and conservation.".
It would seem we differ in our definition of "energy efficiency and
conservation" and several of the</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>items listed below.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>artificially cheap fossil fuel ???? Fossil fuel sits in the ground and is
free as is. How can free be artificially cheap?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>wasteful use of non-renewable energy???? How do you define wasteful? Using
too large of a light bulb, when the person you</DIV>
<DIV>compare them too has no electricity?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>opportunities for efficiency ????? Is energy efficiency relative to the
circumstance in which it is used or is it universal?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>industrialized agricultural as the most efficient???? How would you define
it? I can grow food in my back yard and it is almost</DIV>
<DIV>free.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>exporting massive amounts of subsidized grains????The only subsidy our farm
receives is for the cotton ground that is set out</DIV>
<DIV>and not farmed. We receive no government money for the grain and hay we
sell.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>subsidized grains....under cut the production of corn ???? I would like to
see the evidence of a subsidized grain effecting the </DIV>
<DIV>production of corn in a third world setting. Most third world farmers, only
cost, is the seed. Rain is free and the grass is free, to feed</DIV>
<DIV>there beasts of burden is free. They do not use energy.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>massive imbalance of energy use???? How can a subsistence farmer living off
grid, that barley feeds himself, be fairly compared to </DIV>
<DIV>a farmer living on the grid that can cultivate 100 to 200+++ acres per
day?</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>Brent</FONT></DIV>
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style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=alex@sistemabiobolsa.com
href="mailto:alex@sistemabiobolsa.com">Alexander Eaton</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org">For Discussion of Anaerobic
Digestion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 19, 2011 10:48
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Digestion] Biogas
conversation rates</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>It is unclear to me how peak oil, and the ramifications it has
to our industry, could be offensive to anyone or considered outside the scope
oft his list. We are discussing Anaerobic Digestions and the AD
industry, which is currently undermined by artificially cheap fossil fuel
production and use (not a political statement). It is also hard for me
to see how the juxtaposition of people in the developing world having
suppressed energy needs with wasteful use of non-renewable energy in the
industrialized world should be offensive, or even off topic. In fact,
biogas would be a more feasible option in the industrialized world if its
modest energy production were paired with a more modest energy use. This
is not a political view, but a holistic view of how energy programs should be
implemented. Those of us who work in renewable energy should always
examine opportunities for efficiency as part of our projects to make the
energy production more significant. <BR><BR>The only political view I
see here is referring to industrialized agricultural as the most efficient in
the world (you do not mean energy in to food calories out as your measure of
efficiency?). Or, that exporting massive amounts of subsidized grains
has been some boon for the developing world. Many in Mexico would find
this offensive since these exports have under cut the production of corn in
the country where that grain was developed. That was a political
statement, that many would disagree with.<BR><BR>AD is an incredible renewable
energy source, but one that should teach us to value energy and inherently
become champions of energy efficiency and conservation. Obviously, that
does not mean pulling the plug on key industries or agriculture, but as the
original theme of this thread indicates, there is a massive imbalance of
energy use int he world (also not a political statement) that could be
partially improved by restrain and responsible energy use in the
industrialized world...and then the application of AD for all!
<BR><BR>A <BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 11:53 PM, Reuben Deumling <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:9watts@gmail.com">9watts@gmail.com</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
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class=gmail_quote><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>
<DIV class=im>On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 10:28 PM, Randy Mott <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:randymott@ceeres.eu"
target=_blank>randymott@ceeres.eu</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV lang=EN-US vlink="purple" link="blue">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">If
this list starts becoming a place to expound political theories about the
world and energy, I will drop out.</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV>Peak Oil is a political theory? Hm. <BR>30 countries that produce oil
have already peaked, and ten more are close (out of a total of 54
countries)--I don't think this is debated by anyone--see <A
href="http://www.theoildrum.com/node/5576"
target=_blank>http://www.theoildrum.com/node/5576</A><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=im>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV lang=EN-US vlink="purple" link="blue">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">My
general feeling is when a renewable energy person begins their
presentation with global warming and political slides, that they are not
really a professional in the business.
</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV>I'm not sure who you have in mind, but I am not a renewable energy
person. I'm a citizen who would like to learn about how we can all live well
a decade or two or three hence--even more would be welcome. My interest in
biogas stems from the fact that the other, more familiar, stuff isn't going
to be around or affordable forever, and liquid or gaseous fuels have some
key advantages in certain applications.<BR></DIV>
<DIV class=im>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV lang=EN-US vlink="purple" link="blue">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">We
will be selling carbon credits like anyone seriously in the biogas
business, but I don’t need this list to tell me that by doing so we are
helping to save the world, etc.</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV>No need to worry. Our world will not be saved by carbon credits. I
don't know who was suggesting that, but it certainly wasn't me.
<BR><BR>Reuben
Deumling<BR></DIV><BR></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Digestion
mailing list<BR><BR>to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<BR><A
href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>to
UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<BR><A
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>for
more information about digestion, see<BR>Beginner's Guide to Biogas<BR><A
href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/"
target=_blank>http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</A><BR>and the Biogas Wiki
<A href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/"
target=_blank>http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</A><BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR
clear=all><BR><BR>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>Digestion mailing
list<BR><BR>to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<BR>Digestion@bioenergylists.org<BR><BR>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your
List Settings use the web
page<BR>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org<BR><BR>for
more information about digestion, see<BR>Beginner's Guide to
Biogas<BR>http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/<BR>and the Biogas Wiki
http://biogas.wikispaces.com/<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>