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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>The primary problem is the H2S. The Sulfur in
diesel fuel is not H2S. The sulfur in diesel fuel actually acts as a lubricant
and prolongs the life of diesel </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>engines. The H2S will cut the life a normal
engine by 60- 75%. You can change to a higher heat thermostat say 210F and boil
the acid that forms out</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>but the metal sulfides that form are highly
abrasive to the entire engine. The real problem is the effect the H2S has on any
parts that contain copper,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>like bearings ,it just eats </FONT><FONT size=2
face=Corbel>them up. Several companies make CHP gen sets designed to burn "sour"
well head gas. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>I heard of several places that use engines
out of wrecked cars and just through them away when they fail. Our personal
experience is was not good.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>We seldom got more than 6,OOO hours before
standard automotive diesels or gas engines failed. What run time are your units
able to reach?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>Brent</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=adkarve@gmail.com href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">Anand Karve</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org">For Discussion of Anaerobic
Digestion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, February 16, 2011 6:03
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Digestion] Digestion of
Honey Waste</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Dear Brent,</DIV>
<DIV>In India, biogas is used as cooking fuel and it is always used as it
is. We have two biogas plants at our training centre at Phaltan,
Maharashtra State, India. We use food waste and kitchen waste from our hostel
as the feedstock. The gas from one of the plants is used for cooking and that
from the other is used for operating an internal combustion engine for
generating electricity. The engine is started on petrol and then switched over
to operate with biogas alone. We do not purify the gas, neither for the
cooking nor for running the internal combustion engine. The H2S has so far
corroded neither our cookstove nor our engine. I consulted a U.S.American
Professor about the use of biogas in an internal combustion engine. He comes
to my city (Pune, India), as a consultant to an automobile manufacturer. He
said that the so called oxygen that the engine draws in contains 80% nitrogen.
Biogas has about 40% CO2, which does not interfere with the functioning
of the engine. The moisture in the biogas also does not harm the engine, as
the external air being drawn into the engine also contains moisture,
especially when it is raining. As to the H2S, he said that the whole world was
using diesel with a high sulphur content until about 20 years ago. It never
harmed the engine. We stopped using it to reduce atmospheric
pollution. After seeing our example, there are now several farmers, who
use biogas in their diesel engines (80% biogas and 20% diesel) for pumping
water and for generating electricity.. Biogas has a lower calorific value than
petrol and diesel. We overcome this problem by increasing the
flow rate of biogas. </DIV>
<DIV>Yours</DIV>
<DIV>A.D.Karve <BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 12:58 AM, bingham <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:bingham@zekes.com">bingham@zekes.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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class=gmail_quote>
<DIV bgcolor="#ffffff">
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>Dear Anand,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>Are you saying you have an AD system that
produces Biogas which does not require the expenditure of any
energy?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>Alcohol can be burned in diesel and gas
engines at 100 proof replacing $3.00++ automotive fuel. I do not
understand</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>your point about "<FONT size=3
face="Times New Roman">use the fuel where it is generated" but one of
alcohol's good points is it can be transported</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>inexpensively or used "where it is generated". With the advent of
vacuum operated alcohol distillation systems</DIV>
<DIV>direct sun light is all the external heat that is needed to
produce alcohol at 190 proof.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>We do not know if the honey facility can even
use biogas <FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">"as it is", </FONT>
or has a need for it. Our natural gas boilers cannot use raw
biogas</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>"as it is", we must scrub out all H2S to prevent damaging another
boiler and or most of the CO2 to avoid spending </DIV>
<DIV>thousands to modify the burners to burn both natural gas and biogas. I
do not know where or how you use biogas </DIV>
<DIV>"as it is" we tried it in unit heaters in our livestock buildings and
destroyed them in a year. </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>The fact is in the last 45 years, we have
found almost no application for the long term use of biogas ,that H2S is not
a factor.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>Cooking stoves, lighting, boilers, unite
heaters, water heaters, inferred heaters all experienced significantly
shorter lives from using </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>biogas <FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">"as
it is". Some of the failures were out right dangerous. </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel><FONT size=3
face="Times New Roman"></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Anand, I
believe you are being misleading to the point of being
untruthful. This could result in someone being hurt or
killed,</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>who might take what you said "Biogas can be burned as it is" as
fact and use it with out precautions.</DIV>
<DIV>Standard residential plumbing and appliances contain metals that
do not stand up under long term exposure to H2S. Especially in high
heat high</DIV>
<DIV>humidity conditions. Steel plumbing is used in most places that
were setup to use natural gas or propane. To suggest you can just pump</DIV>
<DIV>biogas"as it is" in place of other fuels is just wrong on many
levels. We are strong proponents of AD but the "Bad Press" the list is
</DIV>
<DIV>currently discussing could be warranted in some instances. AD is not
the "highest and best" technology for all applications.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>Highest and best use principles require the
use of an energy audit and some study to determine which system is
best suited to each situation. My father, grand father </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>and </FONT><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>my uncles
refused to believe that the effluent from the AD system was better for the
crops than the runoff from the livestock buildings. It was only after the
areas</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>around the farms began to build up with new
homes and the complaints of smell threatened to shut us down that they
allowed me to build our first AD system. They then </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>could see an increase in crop yields in later
years, (and the smell went away). </FONT><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>I know
corn farmers </FONT><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>that use corn in there pellet
stoves as fuel to heat there house because fuel pellets cost more to
buy than they were paid for their corn. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>Brent</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B>From:</B> <A
title=adkarve@gmail.com href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com"
target=_blank>Anand Karve</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org" target=_blank>For
Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, February 15, 2011 6:01
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Digestion] Digestion of
Honey Waste</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Dear Brent,</DIV>
<DIV>for alcohol to be useful as fuel, it has to be distilled, which again
requires expenditure of energy. Biogas can be burned as it is. So, if you
want to use the fuel where it is generated, biogas is more advantageous
than alcohol.</DIV>
<DIV>Yours</DIV>
<DIV>A.D.Karve<BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Digestion
mailing list<BR><BR>to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<BR><A
href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>to
UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<BR><A
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>for
more information about digestion, see<BR>Beginner's Guide to Biogas<BR><A
href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/"
target=_blank>http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</A><BR>and the Biogas Wiki
<A href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/"
target=_blank>http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</A><BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR
clear=all><BR>-- <BR>***<BR>Dr. A.D. Karve<BR>President, Appropriate Rural
Technology Institute (ARTI)<BR><BR>*Please change my email address in your
records to: <A href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">adkarve@gmail.com</A>
*<BR><BR><BR><BR>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>Digestion mailing
list<BR><BR>to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<BR>Digestion@bioenergylists.org<BR><BR>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your
List Settings use the web
page<BR>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org<BR><BR>for
more information about digestion, see<BR>Beginner's Guide to
Biogas<BR>http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/<BR>and the Biogas Wiki
http://biogas.wikispaces.com/<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>