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Dear Brent,<br>
<br>
The information on using biogas in boilers and the damage it does is
very useful information. Do you have records that could be put in
the biogas wikispaces page? It would other groups who are using
biogas in boilers to identify the problems they will face. A brief
report (hopefully with pictures) would be useful. We need
information on the problems as well as the benefits of AD.<br>
<br>
The difference between your experience and that of Dr Anand Karve is
that in India most biogas is burnt in "open" conditions, where there
is plenty of ventilation. Any sulphuric acid generated by burning
hydrogen sulphide is well diluted by air. A heater in a livestock
building would be an enclosed system in which the sulphuric acid can
collect and cause rust and other damage to the heat exchangers and
exhaust system. Your exhaust systems are likely to encounter cold
conditions in which water from combustion will condense, allowing
the sulphur dioxide to dissolve and oxidise to form sulphuric acid.
The temperature in India is usually high enough to prevent
condensation, so the sulphur dioxide can escape into the atmosphere.<br>
<br>
If we have more information about both approaches available in the
public realm, we avoid misleading people. If biogas companies in
India were expected to clean their biogas before use, their systems
would become uneconomic. However, as you have pointed out, when
biogas is used in colder climates, the gas must be cleaned before it
can be used, to avoid the problems you encountered.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
David F<br>
<br>
On 16/02/2011 16:58, bingham wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:BF491F5E838E4D62BD1797F920B30F1B@Portable"
type="cite">
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<div><font size="2" face="Corbel">Dear Anand,</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Corbel">Are you saying you have an AD
system that produces Biogas which does not require the
expenditure of any energy?</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Corbel">Alcohol can be burned in diesel
and gas engines at 100 proof replacing $3.00++ automotive
fuel. I do not understand</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Corbel">your point about "<font size="3"
face="Times New Roman">use the fuel where it is generated"
but one of alcohol's good points is it can be transported</font></font></div>
<div>inexpensively or used "where it is generated". With the
advent of vacuum operated alcohol distillation systems</div>
<div>direct sun light is all the external heat that is needed to
produce alcohol at 190 proof.</div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Corbel">We do not know if the honey
facility can even use biogas <font size="3" face="Times New
Roman">"as it is", </font> or has a need for it. Our natural
gas boilers cannot use raw biogas</font></div>
<div>"as it is", we must scrub out all H2S to prevent damaging
another boiler and or most of the CO2 to avoid spending </div>
<div>thousands to modify the burners to burn both natural gas and
biogas. I do not know where or how you use biogas </div>
<div>"as it is" we tried it in unit heaters in our livestock
buildings and destroyed them in a year. </div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Corbel">The fact is in the last 45
years, we have found almost no application for the long term
use of biogas ,that H2S is not a factor.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Corbel">Cooking stoves, lighting,
boilers, unite heaters, water heaters, inferred heaters all
experienced significantly shorter lives from using </font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Corbel">biogas <font size="3"
face="Times New Roman">"as it is". Some of the failures were
out right dangerous. </font></font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Corbel"><font size="3" face="Times New
Roman">Anand, I believe you are being misleading to the
point of being untruthful. This could result in someone
being hurt or killed,</font></font></div>
<div>who might take what you said "Biogas can be burned as it is"
as fact and use it with out precautions.</div>
<div>Standard residential plumbing and appliances contain metals
that do not stand up under long term exposure to H2S. Especially
in high heat high</div>
<div>humidity conditions. Steel plumbing is used in most places
that were setup to use natural gas or propane. To suggest you
can just pump</div>
<div>biogas"as it is" in place of other fuels is just wrong on
many levels. We are strong proponents of AD but the "Bad Press"
the list is </div>
<div>currently discussing could be warranted in some instances. AD
is not the "highest and best" technology for all applications.</div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Corbel">Highest and best use principles
require the use of an energy audit and some study to determine
which system is best suited to each situation. My father,
grand father </font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Corbel">and </font><font size="2"
face="Corbel">my uncles refused to believe that the effluent
from the AD system was better for the crops than the runoff
from the livestock buildings. It was only after the areas</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Corbel">around the farms began to build
up with new homes and the complaints of smell threatened to
shut us down that they allowed me to build our first AD
system. They then </font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Corbel">could see an increase in crop
yields in later years, (and the smell went away). </font><font
size="2" face="Corbel">I know corn farmers </font><font
size="2" face="Corbel">that use corn in there pellet stoves as
fuel to heat there house because fuel pellets cost more to
buy than they were paid for their corn. </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Corbel">Brent</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);
padding-left: 5px; padding-right: 0px; margin-left: 5px;
margin-right: 0px;">
<div style="font: 10pt arial;">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="font: 10pt arial; background: none repeat scroll 0%
0% rgb(228, 228, 228);"><b>From:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" title="adkarve@gmail.com"
href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">Anand Karve</a> </div>
<div style="font: 10pt arial;"><b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org"
href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org">For
Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion</a> </div>
<div style="font: 10pt arial;"><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February
15, 2011 6:01 PM</div>
<div style="font: 10pt arial;"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Digestion]
Digestion of Honey Waste</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Dear Brent,</div>
<div>for alcohol to be useful as fuel, it has to be distilled,
which again requires expenditure of energy. Biogas can be
burned as it is. So, if you want to use the fuel where it is
generated, biogas is more advantageous than alcohol.</div>
<div>Yours</div>
<div>A.D.Karve<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
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_______________________________________________
Digestion mailing list
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
for more information about digestion, see
Beginner's Guide to Biogas
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a>
and the Biogas Wiki <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<p align="center">********************************************************************<br>
Dr David Fulford CEnv MEI, 15, Brandon Ave, Woodley, Reading RG5
4PU <br>
<a href="mailto:d.j.fulford@btinternet.com">d.j.fulford@btinternet.com</a>,
Tel: +44(0)118 326 9779 Mob: +44(0)7746 806401 <br>
Kingdom Bioenergy Ltd, <a href="http://www.kingdombio.com">www.kingdombio.com</a>,
<a href="mailto:davidf@kindombio.com">davidf@kindombio.com</a> </p>
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