<div><div>Dear David and Melvin, <br><br>I apologize for not responding sooner, a lot of things were prioritized.
Here is the full sources list for the basic anaerobic degradation
described on 23 Mar 2011 in the topic "The biology of Biogas
Production".<br><br>(i) As already mentioned, basic biology for engineering
purposes (encluding the biochemisty of the biogas formation from various
sources) is explained in:<i><br>
Deublein & Steinhauser's Biogas form waste and renewable resources (Willey, 2009))</i> and many other pollution engineering handbooks.<br>
<br>(ii) The microbial syntrophism explained (interspecies hydrogen transfer), essential for biogas production, is explained in e.g.:<br>
<i>Schink, B (1997) Energetics of syntrophic cooperation in methanogenic
degradation. Microbiology and Molecular Biology Reviews, 61 (2), 262-280</i>,<br>(an example was explained already in 1967 by <i>Bryant et al., Methanobacillus omelianskii, a symbiotic association of two species of bacteria.<br>
Arch. Microbiol. 59:20.</i>) <br><br>(iii) Regarding the biodiversity in the reactor, the number 800 species was given recently at a lecture from prof. Romana Marinsek-Logar from UL. In a recent publication, <i>Jaenicke et al (2011), Comparative and Joint Analysis of Two Metagenomic Datasets from a Biogas Fermenter Obtained by 454-Pyrosequencing,</i> the taxonomic profile of the biogas producing community is updated with several new genera (s.a. <i>Streptococus</i> and genera in the<i> Firmicutes</i> phylum), altogether 40 genera was identified. Furthermore, I'm am anxios to see the outcome of the biogas-producing microbial community sequencing (Martin Wu, UC Davis & DOE JGI), a project which is bound to produce interesting results. <br>
<br>(iv) General facts about <i>Archaea</i> etc. can be found in <i>Brock's Biology <span></span>of Microorganisms</i><i> </i>and in <i>Bergey's Manual</i> .<br>
<br>(a.d.) Also,
i have come across an interesting educational cartoon describing the biological process
of biogas formation . It is informative and has one or two slips (e.g. in the
animation water is added after the hydrolysis, where in fact it has to
be present before the process for the decay of complex molecules), but
still very nice to see.<br><br><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUBAndojs50&feature=player_embedded" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUBAndojs50&feature=player_embedded</a><br><br>BR, Gasan Osojnik</div>
<div> </div>
<div><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(153, 0, 51)">Ilja Gasan OSOJNIK ČRNIVEC, </span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial">L05 - Laboratory for Environmental Sciences and Engineering</span>
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<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 24 March 2011 20:01, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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1. Re: Digestion Digest, Vol 7, Issue 12<br>
(<a href="mailto:finstein@envsci.rutgers.edu" target="_blank">finstein@envsci.rutgers.edu</a>)<br>
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<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 16:25:56 -0400 (EDT)<br>
From: <a href="mailto:finstein@envsci.rutgers.edu" target="_blank">finstein@envsci.rutgers.edu</a><br>
To: <a href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 7, Issue 12<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:50983.184.13.22.162.1300911956.squirrel@mail.envsci.rutgers.edu" target="_blank">50983.184.13.22.162.1300911956.squirrel@mail.envsci.rutgers.edu</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1<br>
<br>
I would add to Gasan's proper remarks that H2 is not only a substrate for<br>
methanogens (most can use it) but also a regulator of the overall<br>
methanogenic system. This is because H2 is inhibitive of<br>
acidogenesis/acetogenesis, particularly those bacteria that use protons as<br>
an electron sink (thereby producing H2).<br>
<br>
Regarding "...around 800 species are involved in the biogas formation<br>
community...", does this refer to methanogenic archaea per se, or to all<br>
the diverse bacteria (and even eucaryota) involved in the overall<br>
methanogenic system?<br>
<br>
Could you provide the source for the "800 species" estimate?<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Mel<br>
<br>
Melvin S. Finstein, Ph.D.<br>
Professor Emeritus<br>
Rutgers University<br>
<br>
105 Carmel Road<br>
Wheeling, WV 26003<br>
304.242.0341<br>
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<br>
<br>
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><br>
> 1. Re: The biology of biogas production (Gasan Osojnik)<br>
> 2. Re: The biology of biogas production (David Fulford)<br>
> 3. The biology of biogas production (Gasan Osojnik)<br>
> 4. Biology of Biogas production. (Murali Krishna)<br>
> 5. Re: Biology of Biogas production. (Murali Krishna)<br>
> 6. Re: The biology of biogas production (Anand Karve)<br>
><br>
><br>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
> Message: 1<br>
> Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 08:49:55 +0100<br>
> From: Gasan Osojnik <<a href="mailto:gasan.osojnik@gmail.com" target="_blank">gasan.osojnik@gmail.com</a>><br>
> To: <a href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
> Cc: <a href="mailto:digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
> Subject: Re: [Digestion] The biology of biogas production<br>
> Message-ID:<br>
> <AANLkTi=fk+1kCF-U1EVz6kYciy=<a href="mailto:dn%2B-3VxqhG7nb_Ts3@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">dn+-3VxqhG7nb_Ts3@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
><br>
> Dear dr. Karve<br>
><br>
> I do not wish to engage nor in a lengthy philosophical or physiological<br>
> debate, but I do have one or two points to make:<br>
><br>
> 1. Methanogenic archaea do not degrade sugar or even complex substances,<br>
> they use either acetate or hydrogen + carbon dioxide to survive. They are<br>
> old an primitive organisms, that originate back to the beginning of life,<br>
> even before glucose was formed by other organisms, therefore they can<br>
> feast<br>
> on very basic energy sources. There are not any other "methanogens" in<br>
> other branches of the evolution tree.<br>
> 2. The stechiometric ratio of methane/carbon dioxide fromation from<br>
> carbohydrates is CH4/CO2 = 50/50, from fats = 62.5/37.5 and from proteins<br>
> 71/29 (due to absorptive properties of the sediment), so the number<br>
> mentioned is presumably based on anaerobic microbial protein degradation?<br>
> 3. The chain of microorganisms is not only highly likely, but is confirmed<br>
> by the means of certified analytical techniques, such as the techniques of<br>
> molecular biology and can be even seen under the electron microscope. The<br>
> sole biochemistry and the termoenergetics of the methane formation process<br>
> from polymers reveal, that it is impossible for the process to start and<br>
> finish in only one type of unicellular procaryotic microorganisms (or any<br>
> other). We have pictures of microorganisms of species that are literary<br>
> "glued one another" for better substrate / intermediate exchange, and this<br>
> is no exception but a necessity for their survival. Currently it is<br>
> believed<br>
> that around 800 species are involved in the biogas formation community<br>
> (not<br>
> all at the same time) but this number is increasing rapidly (e.g. 2008<br>
> this<br>
> number was around 400). Personally I believe this number to be much<br>
> greater,<br>
> as methanogenic microbiota is found on very diverse parts of the planet<br>
> and<br>
> is a common way of surviving in areas with no / low oxygen concentrations.<br>
> 4. The issue of CO2 which has ben adressed needs some basic insight in<br>
> the<br>
> process. The dissolved co2 that is produced intermediately in the proceses<br>
> of acetogenesis (some also in the hydrolysis ans acetogenesis) is, as<br>
> said,<br>
> a substrate for the production of methane, and is taken up very rapidly<br>
> by<br>
> the archaea. Therefore, you should not look at the intermediate CO2 as a<br>
> product but as a reactant. As most of the biogas (at least up to 70%) is<br>
> formed via acetate decarboxylation to methane and CO2. The partial<br>
> pressures<br>
> of surplus CO2 equilibrate in the headspace of the reactor and the liquid,<br>
> so the CO2 that you get in biogas is actualy mostly the product of<br>
> acetoclastic methanogenesis.<br>
><br>
> BR, Gasan<br>
><br>
><br>
> Dear Mr. Afilal,<br>
> if you used any substance that is digested by humans,(sugar, starch,<br>
> digestible protein or fat), it gets completely converted into biogas by<br>
> the methanogens. 1 kg of any of these substances would yield about 1 kg<br>
> biogas, containing the theoretically calculated proportion of roughly 25<br>
> to<br>
> 30% methane and 70 to 75% carbon dioxide. The presence of a chain of<br>
> micro-organisms, with each one producing a product that serves as food for<br>
> the next one in the chain is not believable. If it were really so, one<br>
> would<br>
> get a much higher concentration of carbon dioxide in the resultant biogas,<br>
> because the intermediate organisms produce only carbon dioxide and not<br>
> methane.<br>
> Yours<br>
> A.D.Karve<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On 22 March 2011 20:00, <<a href="mailto:digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Re: The biology of biogas production<br>
> -------------- next part --------------<br>
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>
> URL:<br>
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><br>
> ------------------------------<br>
><br>
> Message: 2<br>
> Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 08:18:48 +0000<br>
> From: David Fulford <<a href="mailto:davidf@kingdombio.com" target="_blank">davidf@kingdombio.com</a>><br>
> To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion<br>
> <<a href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
> Cc: Gasan Osojnik <<a href="mailto:gasan.osojnik@gmail.com" target="_blank">gasan.osojnik@gmail.com</a>>,<br>
> <a href="mailto:digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
> Subject: Re: [Digestion] The biology of biogas production<br>
> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:4D89ACE8.8090502@kingdombio.com" target="_blank">4D89ACE8.8090502@kingdombio.com</a>><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"<br>
><br>
> Dear Gasan and listers,<br>
><br>
> This is the sort of information we need on the biogas wiki. Can you<br>
> provide us with some basic references (books, academic articles) that we<br>
> can use for this data, especially on item 2. This is the clearest<br>
> statement I have read on the relative proportions of CH4/CO2 from<br>
> various substrates.<br>
><br>
> Do you mean stochiometric, or is stechiometric another term that we need<br>
> to learn?<br>
><br>
> Thanks<br>
><br>
> David F<br>
><br>
> On 23/03/2011 07:49, Gasan Osojnik wrote:<br>
>> Dear dr. Karve<br>
>><br>
>> I do not wish to engage nor in a lengthy philosophical or<br>
>> physiological debate, but I do have one or two points to make:<br>
>><br>
>> 1. Methanogenic archaea do not degrade sugar or even complex<br>
>> substances, they use either acetate or hydrogen + carbon dioxide to<br>
>> survive. They are old an primitive organisms, that originate back to<br>
>> the beginning of life, even before glucose was formed by other<br>
>> organisms, therefore they can feast on very basic energy sources.<br>
>> There are not any other "methanogens" in other branches of the<br>
>> evolution tree.<br>
>> 2. The stechiometric ratio of methane/carbon dioxide fromation from<br>
>> carbohydrates is CH4/CO2 = 50/50, from fats = 62.5/37.5 and from<br>
>> proteins 71/29 (due to absorptive properties of the sediment), so the<br>
>> number mentioned is presumably based on anaerobic microbial protein<br>
>> degradation?<br>
>> 3. The chain of microorganisms is not only highly likely, but is<br>
>> confirmed by the means of certified analytical techniques, such as the<br>
>> techniques of molecular biology and can be even seen under the<br>
>> electron microscope. The sole biochemistry and the termoenergetics of<br>
>> the methane formation process from polymers reveal, that it is<br>
>> impossible for the process to start and finish in only one type of<br>
>> unicellular procaryotic microorganisms (or any other). We have<br>
>> pictures of microorganisms of species that are literary "glued one<br>
>> another" for better substrate / intermediate exchange, and this is no<br>
>> exception but a necessity for their survival. Currently it is believed<br>
>> that around 800 species are involved in the biogas formation community<br>
>> (not all at the same time) but this number is increasing rapidly (e.g.<br>
>> 2008 this number was around 400). Personally I believe this number to<br>
>> be much greater, as methanogenic microbiota is found on very diverse<br>
>> parts of the planet and is a common way of surviving in areas with no<br>
>> / low oxygen concentrations.<br>
>> 4. The issue of CO2 which has ben adressed needs some basic insight<br>
>> in the process. The dissolved co2 that is produced intermediately in<br>
>> the proceses of acetogenesis (some also in the hydrolysis ans<br>
>> acetogenesis) is, as said, a substrate for the production of methane,<br>
>> and is taken up very rapidly by the archaea. Therefore, you should<br>
>> not look at the intermediate CO2 as a product but as a reactant. As<br>
>> most of the biogas (at least up to 70%) is formed via acetate<br>
>> decarboxylation to methane and CO2. The partial pressures of surplus<br>
>> CO2 equilibrate in the headspace of the reactor and the liquid, so the<br>
>> CO2 that you get in biogas is actualy mostly the product of<br>
>> acetoclastic methanogenesis.<br>
>><br>
>> BR, Gasan<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Dear Mr. Afilal,<br>
>> if you used any substance that is digested by humans,(sugar, starch,<br>
>> digestible protein or fat), it gets completely converted into biogas by<br>
>> the methanogens. 1 kg of any of these substances would yield about 1 kg<br>
>> biogas, containing the theoretically calculated proportion of roughly<br>
>> 25 to<br>
>> 30% methane and 70 to 75% carbon dioxide. The presence of a chain of<br>
>> micro-organisms, with each one producing a product that serves as food<br>
>> for<br>
>> the next one in the chain is not believable. If it were really so, one<br>
>> would<br>
>> get a much higher concentration of carbon dioxide in the resultant<br>
>> biogas,<br>
>> because the intermediate organisms produce only carbon dioxide and not<br>
>> methane.<br>
>> Yours<br>
>> A.D.Karve<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On 22 March 2011 20:00, <<a href="mailto:digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Re: The biology of biogas production<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> Digestion mailing list<br>
>><br>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
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>><br>
>> for more information about digestion, see<br>
>> Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br>
>> <a href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/" target="_blank">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br>
>> and the Biogas Wiki <a href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/" target="_blank">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br>
>><br>
><br>
> --<br>
><br>
> ********************************************************************<br>
> Dr David Fulford CEnv MEI, 15, Brandon Ave, Woodley, Reading RG5 4PU<br>
> <a href="mailto:d.j.fulford@btinternet.com" target="_blank">d.j.fulford@btinternet.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:d.j.fulford@btinternet.com" target="_blank">d.j.fulford@btinternet.com</a>>, Tel:<br>
> +44(0)118 326 9779 Mob: +44(0)7746 806401<br>
> Kingdom Bioenergy Ltd, <a href="http://www.kingdombio.com" target="_blank">www.kingdombio.com</a> <<a href="http://www.kingdombio.com" target="_blank">http://www.kingdombio.com</a>>,<br>
> <a href="mailto:davidf@kindombio.com" target="_blank">davidf@kindombio.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:davidf@kindombio.com" target="_blank">davidf@kindombio.com</a>><br>
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><br>
> ------------------------------<br>
><br>
> Message: 3<br>
> Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 09:38:13 +0100<br>
> From: Gasan Osojnik <<a href="mailto:gasan.osojnik@gmail.com" target="_blank">gasan.osojnik@gmail.com</a>><br>
> To: David Fulford <<a href="mailto:davidf@kingdombio.com" target="_blank">davidf@kingdombio.com</a>>,<br>
> <a href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
> Subject: [Digestion] The biology of biogas production<br>
> Message-ID:<br>
> <AANLkTikycHe17mnMCxmKiA2f6M90y=<a href="mailto:UQK0_0MZOcxgO0@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">UQK0_0MZOcxgO0@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
><br>
> Dear David,<br>
><br>
> My engineering book covers most of the written topics (Deublein &<br>
> Steinhauser's Biogas form waste and renewable resources (Willey, 2009)),<br>
> encluding the biochemisty of the biogas formation from various sources<br>
> (points 2. and 4.), but i guess pollution engineering handbook should do.<br>
> I<br>
> will get back to you with the references for the microbiological part.<br>
><br>
> Excuse me on my quick-fingers terminology, nor "stochiometric" or<br>
> "stechiometric" but "stoichiometric" should do fine :)<br>
><br>
> BR, Gasan<br>
><br>
><br>
> On 23 March 2011 09:18, David Fulford <<a href="mailto:davidf@kingdombio.com" target="_blank">davidf@kingdombio.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Dear Gasan and listers,<br>
>><br>
>> This is the sort of information we need on the biogas wiki. Can you<br>
>> provide<br>
>> us with some basic references (books, academic articles) that we can use<br>
>> for<br>
>> this data, especially on item 2. This is the clearest statement I have<br>
>> read<br>
>> on the relative proportions of CH4/CO2 from various substrates.<br>
>><br>
>> Do you mean stochiometric, or is stechiometric another term that we need<br>
>> to<br>
>> learn?<br>
>><br>
>> Thanks<br>
>><br>
>> David F<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On 23/03/2011 07:49, Gasan Osojnik wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Dear dr. Karve<br>
>><br>
>> I do not wish to engage nor in a lengthy philosophical or physiological<br>
>> debate, but I do have one or two points to make:<br>
>><br>
>> 1. Methanogenic archaea do not degrade sugar or even complex substances,<br>
>> they use either acetate or hydrogen + carbon dioxide to survive. They<br>
>> are<br>
>> old an primitive organisms, that originate back to the beginning of<br>
>> life,<br>
>> even before glucose was formed by other organisms, therefore they can<br>
>> feast<br>
>> on very basic energy sources. There are not any other "methanogens" in<br>
>> other branches of the evolution tree.<br>
>> 2. The stechiometric ratio of methane/carbon dioxide fromation from<br>
>> carbohydrates is CH4/CO2 = 50/50, from fats = 62.5/37.5 and from<br>
>> proteins<br>
>> 71/29 (due to absorptive properties of the sediment), so the number<br>
>> mentioned is presumably based on anaerobic microbial protein<br>
>> degradation?<br>
>> 3. The chain of microorganisms is not only highly likely, but is<br>
>> confirmed<br>
>> by the means of certified analytical techniques, such as the techniques<br>
>> of<br>
>> molecular biology and can be even seen under the electron microscope.<br>
>> The<br>
>> sole biochemistry and the termoenergetics of the methane formation<br>
>> process<br>
>> from polymers reveal, that it is impossible for the process to start and<br>
>> finish in only one type of unicellular procaryotic microorganisms (or<br>
>> any<br>
>> other). We have pictures of microorganisms of species that are literary<br>
>> "glued one another" for better substrate / intermediate exchange, and<br>
>> this<br>
>> is no exception but a necessity for their survival. Currently it is<br>
>> believed<br>
>> that around 800 species are involved in the biogas formation community<br>
>> (not<br>
>> all at the same time) but this number is increasing rapidly (e.g. 2008<br>
>> this<br>
>> number was around 400). Personally I believe this number to be much<br>
>> greater,<br>
>> as methanogenic microbiota is found on very diverse parts of the planet<br>
>> and<br>
>> is a common way of surviving in areas with no / low oxygen<br>
>> concentrations.<br>
>> 4. The issue of CO2 which has ben adressed needs some basic insight in<br>
>> the<br>
>> process. The dissolved co2 that is produced intermediately in the<br>
>> proceses<br>
>> of acetogenesis (some also in the hydrolysis ans acetogenesis) is, as<br>
>> said,<br>
>> a substrate for the production of methane, and is taken up very rapidly<br>
>> by<br>
>> the archaea. Therefore, you should not look at the intermediate CO2 as a<br>
>> product but as a reactant. As most of the biogas (at least up to 70%) is<br>
>> formed via acetate decarboxylation to methane and CO2. The partial<br>
>> pressures<br>
>> of surplus CO2 equilibrate in the headspace of the reactor and the<br>
>> liquid,<br>
>> so the CO2 that you get in biogas is actualy mostly the product of<br>
>> acetoclastic methanogenesis.<br>
>><br>
>> BR, Gasan<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Dear Mr. Afilal,<br>
>> if you used any substance that is digested by humans,(sugar, starch,<br>
>> digestible protein or fat), it gets completely converted into biogas by<br>
>> the methanogens. 1 kg of any of these substances would yield about 1 kg<br>
>> biogas, containing the theoretically calculated proportion of roughly 25<br>
>> to<br>
>> 30% methane and 70 to 75% carbon dioxide. The presence of a chain of<br>
>> micro-organisms, with each one producing a product that serves as food<br>
>> for<br>
>> the next one in the chain is not believable. If it were really so, one<br>
>> would<br>
>> get a much higher concentration of carbon dioxide in the resultant<br>
>> biogas,<br>
>> because the intermediate organisms produce only carbon dioxide and not<br>
>> methane.<br>
>> Yours<br>
>> A.D.Karve<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On 22 March 2011 20:00,<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>>wrote:<br>
>><br>
>>> Re: The biology of biogas production<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> Digestion mailing list<br>
>><br>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
>> <a href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>><br>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web<br>
>> pagehttp://<a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>><br>
>> for more information about digestion, see<br>
>> Beginner's Guide to Biogashttp://<a href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/" target="_blank">www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br>
>> and the Biogas Wiki <a href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/" target="_blank">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>><br>
>> ********************************************************************<br>
>> Dr David Fulford CEnv MEI, 15, Brandon Ave, Woodley, Reading RG5 4PU<br>
>> <a href="mailto:d.j.fulford@btinternet.com" target="_blank">d.j.fulford@btinternet.com</a>, Tel: +44(0)118 326 9779 Mob: +44(0)7746<br>
>> 806401<br>
>><br>
>> Kingdom Bioenergy Ltd, <a href="http://www.kingdombio.com" target="_blank">www.kingdombio.com</a>, <a href="mailto:davidf@kindombio.com" target="_blank">davidf@kindombio.com</a><br>
>><br>
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> ------------------------------<br>
><br>
> Message: 4<br>
> Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 18:25:26 +0530<br>
> From: Murali Krishna <<a href="mailto:bmkrishna6@gmail.com" target="_blank">bmkrishna6@gmail.com</a>><br>
> To: <a href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a><br>
> Subject: [Digestion] Biology of Biogas production.<br>
> Message-ID:<br>
> <AANLkTik7SM=<a href="mailto:tiX3a3Ty8tp0yknKk7w9cnbt0YwY6E3ji@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">tiX3a3Ty8tp0yknKk7w9cnbt0YwY6E3ji@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
><br>
> Dear BR, Gasan,<br>
><br>
> I absolutely agree with you on "intermediate CO2 as a product but as<br>
> a reactant. As most of the biogas (at least up to 70%) is formed via<br>
> acetate decarboxylation to methane and CO2. " I believe that there<br>
> will be more number of species than 800 involved in the process. If<br>
> we mailntain ideal conditions in the digester the rest of things we<br>
> can leave it to the species unless we want to speeden the process `<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> ------------------------------<br>
><br>
> Message: 5<br>
> Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 18:28:25 +0530<br>
> From: Murali Krishna <<a href="mailto:bmkrishna6@gmail.com" target="_blank">bmkrishna6@gmail.com</a>><br>
> To: <a href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a><br>
> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Biology of Biogas production.<br>
> Message-ID:<br>
> <AANLkTi=+qtB96c=nj-zH2Zsah_onSaYaGmWk=<a href="mailto:x-Zyvjx@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">x-Zyvjx@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
><br>
> Dear BR, Gasan,<br>
><br>
> I absolutely agree with you on "intermediate CO2 as a product but as<br>
> a reactant. As most of the biogas (at least up to 70%) is formed via<br>
> acetate decarboxylation to methane and CO2. " I believe that there<br>
> will be more number of species than 800 involved in the process. If<br>
> we maintain ideal conditions in the digester the rest of things we<br>
> can leave it to the species unless we want to speeden the process.<br>
><br>
> Regards,<br>
><br>
> Krishna<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 6:25 PM, Murali Krishna <<a href="mailto:bmkrishna6@gmail.com" target="_blank">bmkrishna6@gmail.com</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>
>> Dear BR, Gasan,<br>
>><br>
>> I ?absolutely agree with you on ?"intermediate CO2 as a product but as<br>
>> a reactant. As most of the biogas (at least up to 70%) is formed via<br>
>> acetate decarboxylation to methane and CO2. " ? I believe that there<br>
>> will be more number of species than 800 involved in the process. ?If<br>
>> we mailntain ideal conditions in the digester the rest of things we<br>
>> can leave it to the species unless we want to speeden the process `<br>
>><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> ------------------------------<br>
><br>
> Message: 6<br>
> Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 21:53:37 +0800<br>
> From: Anand Karve <<a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com" target="_blank">adkarve@gmail.com</a>><br>
> To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion<br>
> <<a href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: [Digestion] The biology of biogas production<br>
> Message-ID:<br>
> <AANLkTi=<a href="mailto:oCqi-Ko-HmYfVjJJNfw3DJRszHW6Zkz-rfF3s@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">oCqi-Ko-HmYfVjJJNfw3DJRszHW6Zkz-rfF3s@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
><br>
> Thanks, Mr. Osojnik for the information.<br>
> Yours<br>
> A.D.Karve<br>
><br>
> On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 3:49 PM, Gasan Osojnik <<a href="mailto:gasan.osojnik@gmail.com" target="_blank">gasan.osojnik@gmail.com</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>
>> Dear dr. Karve<br>
>><br>
>> I do not wish to engage nor in a lengthy philosophical or physiological<br>
>> debate, but I do have one or two points to make:<br>
>><br>
>> 1. Methanogenic archaea do not degrade sugar or even complex substances,<br>
>> they use either acetate or hydrogen + carbon dioxide to survive. They<br>
>> are<br>
>> old an primitive organisms, that originate back to the beginning of<br>
>> life,<br>
>> even before glucose was formed by other organisms, therefore they can<br>
>> feast<br>
>> on very basic energy sources.? There are not any other "methanogens" in<br>
>> other branches of the evolution tree.<br>
>> 2. The stechiometric ratio of methane/carbon dioxide fromation from<br>
>> carbohydrates is CH4/CO2 = 50/50, from fats = 62.5/37.5 and from<br>
>> proteins<br>
>> 71/29 (due to absorptive properties of the sediment), so the number<br>
>> mentioned is presumably based on anaerobic microbial protein<br>
>> degradation?<br>
>> 3. The chain of microorganisms is not only highly likely, but is<br>
>> confirmed<br>
>> by the means of certified analytical techniques, such as the techniques<br>
>> of<br>
>> molecular biology and can be even seen under the? electron microscope.<br>
>> The<br>
>> sole biochemistry and the termoenergetics of the methane formation<br>
>> process<br>
>> from polymers reveal, that it is impossible for the process to start and<br>
>> finish in only one type of unicellular procaryotic microorganisms (or<br>
>> any<br>
>> other). We have pictures of microorganisms of species that are literary<br>
>> "glued one another" for better substrate / intermediate exchange, and<br>
>> this<br>
>> is no exception but a necessity for their survival. Currently it is<br>
>> believed<br>
>> that around 800 species are involved in the biogas formation community<br>
>> (not<br>
>> all at the same time) but this number is increasing rapidly (e.g. 2008<br>
>> this<br>
>> number was around 400). Personally I believe this number to be much<br>
>> greater,<br>
>> as methanogenic microbiota is found on very diverse parts of the planet<br>
>> and<br>
>> is a common way of surviving in areas with no / low oxygen<br>
>> concentrations.<br>
>> 4. The issue of? CO2 which has ben adressed needs some basic insight in<br>
>> the<br>
>> process. The dissolved co2 that is produced intermediately in the<br>
>> proceses<br>
>> of acetogenesis (some also in the? hydrolysis ans acetogenesis) is, as<br>
>> said,<br>
>> a substrate for the production of methane, and is taken up very rapidly?<br>
>> by<br>
>> the archaea. Therefore, you should not look at the intermediate CO2 as a<br>
>> product but as a reactant. As most of the biogas (at least up to 70%) is<br>
>> formed via acetate decarboxylation to methane and CO2. The partial<br>
>> pressures<br>
>> of surplus CO2 equilibrate in the headspace of the reactor and the<br>
>> liquid,<br>
>> so the CO2 that you get in biogas is actualy mostly the product of<br>
>> acetoclastic methanogenesis.<br>
>><br>
>> BR, Gasan<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Dear Mr. Afilal,<br>
>> if you used any substance that is digested by humans,(sugar, starch,<br>
>> digestible protein or fat), it gets completely converted into biogas by<br>
>> the methanogens. 1 kg of any of these substances would yield about 1 kg<br>
>> biogas, containing the theoretically calculated proportion of roughly 25<br>
>> to<br>
>> 30% methane and 70 to 75% carbon dioxide. The presence of a chain of<br>
>> micro-organisms, with each one producing a product that serves as food<br>
>> for<br>
>> the next one in the chain is not believable. If it were really so, one<br>
>> would<br>
>> get a much higher concentration of carbon dioxide in the resultant<br>
>> biogas,<br>
>> because the intermediate organisms produce only carbon dioxide and not<br>
>> methane.<br>
>> Yours<br>
>> A.D.Karve<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On 22 March 2011 20:00, <<a href="mailto:digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> Re: The biology of biogas production<br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> Digestion mailing list<br>
>><br>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
>> <a href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>><br>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
>> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>><br>
>> for more information about digestion, see<br>
>> Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br>
>> <a href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/" target="_blank">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br>
>> and the Biogas Wiki <a href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/" target="_blank">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> ***<br>
> Dr. A.D. Karve<br>
> President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)<br>
><br>
> *Please change my email address in your records to: <a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com" target="_blank">adkarve@gmail.com</a> *<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> ------------------------------<br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Digestion mailing list<br>
><br>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
> <a href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a><br>
><br>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
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><br>
> for more information about digestion, see<br>
> Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br>
> <a href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/" target="_blank">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br>
> and the Biogas Wiki <a href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/" target="_blank">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> End of Digestion Digest, Vol 7, Issue 12<br>
> ****************************************<br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
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Digestion mailing list<br>
<br>
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
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<br>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
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<br>
for more information about digestion, see<br>
Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br>
<a href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/" target="_blank">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br>
and the Biogas Wiki <a href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/" target="_blank">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
End of Digestion Digest, Vol 7, Issue 13<br>
****************************************<br>
</blockquote></div><br>