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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>I honestly do not believe this is the
correct forum for this type of discussion.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>I can go back to the time I was in college and
produce papers written to verify there was a consciences that settled science
determined</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>there was going to be an impending ice age.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>this was repeated in almost every major world
paper.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>It is my understanding that over the period of
time you reference, settled science has determined there to have been 3 ice ages
and 3 </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>or more incidences of global warming.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>Sense they all pre dates man to what do you
attribute the warming?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>"When, over suitable time ranges, the record of temperatures is averaged,
what has been found is that indeed things have </DIV>
<DIV>gotten warmer. (This is pretty well-settled science, and the effort has
been undertaken by a number of different and independent groups."</DIV>
<DIV>I would like to see the list of "independent groups" you refer
too. The ones we saw listed are anything but independent. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>If you look closely at the list of so called
scientists that makes up the "settled science" report over 80 % receive money
from </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>groups that support that same point of view. I
also remember not so long ago many on this list falsified or misstated data to
create the </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>elusion of global warming.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>When a tractor salesman tells me a competitors
brand is better I am more inclined to believe it than when he tells me the
others brand </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>is worse. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>The idea of energy conservation would have
any effect on the earth biosphere is a joke.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>If you look closely the effects they estimate are
not within the margin of error and would take 100 years to even show up at
all.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>The population is growing and they will need
increasing amounts of energy to improve and sustain their lives over the short
and long term.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>AD provides a way to take the waste that will
inevitably be generated and convert it in to usable by products.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>They only way to accomplish significant energy
conservation is the plan progressives cam up with at the turn of the
century.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>they were going to sterilize mass portions of the
population. George Bernard Shaw was part of this group.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>If you read Shaw's less well known
writings you will find he and his group had very logical justification for there
positions, the </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>environment being one of them.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>I cannot remember who was concerned about low corn
prices, but how are the high prices working out for you?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>Brent</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel>One the PhDs not on the list of settled
science!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Corbel></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=david@h4c.org href="mailto:david@h4c.org">David</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org">For Discussion of Anaerobic
Digestion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=RJones@twp.co.za
href="mailto:RJones@twp.co.za">Jones, Robin (TWP)</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, July 22, 2011 8:56 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Digestion] Digestion
Digest, Vol 11, Issue 16</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=Georgia><BR>Robin,<BR></FONT><BR>On 7/22/2011 9:32
AM, Jones, Robin (TWP) wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE
cite=mid:EBF00BF5F1C23F469A34595277A538CC3A39DF41@ZAATRFS34.twp.co.za
type="cite"><PRE wrap="">Something I have been thinking about for quite some time now.
I understand that the whole argument surrounding global warming is that temperatures etc. have changed proportionately </PRE><PRE wrap="">to CO2 levels in the earth's atmosphere. The hypothesis is that CO2 forms a thermal blanket through which the </PRE><PRE wrap="">transmission of heat waves to outer space is retarded.</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Actually
what changes is not always temperature, but rather the amount of energy in
various systems. Since weather is an engine powered by that energy, what one
gets with increases in greenhouse gases is more weather extremes. You might
expect more hurricanes, for example, or an increase in both droughts and
flooding (although obviously not likely in the same area). <BR><BR>When, over
suitable time ranges, the record of temperatures is averaged, what has been
found is that indeed things have gotten warmer. (This is pretty well-settled
science, and the effort has been undertaken by a number of different and
independent groups.) What happens today is weather; what happens over a decade
is climate.<BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
cite=mid:EBF00BF5F1C23F469A34595277A538CC3A39DF41@ZAATRFS34.twp.co.za
type="cite"><PRE wrap="">For most heat to be created the primary starting point is combustion which in most cases produce CO2. Therefore the level of </PRE><PRE wrap="">CO2 in earth's atmosphere is proportional to the heat generated by the primary energy source (i.e. Combustion). If this is the case, can't we conclude that global warming is also proportionate to the thermal energy produced worldwide. </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Here's
the thing, returning to biogas, which is that it matters a good deal where the
carbon comes from. When we create biogas using organic materials that grew,
then what has happened is that carbon was taken out of the atmosphere and
returned. When we create heat or power using fossil fuels, then we have
essentially dug up pre-historic carbon and <I>added</I> that to the
atmosphere. Deforestation has the same effect, even though it liberates carbon
that is "historic", carbon that was recently in the atmosphere. Thus,
depending on how we build our solar or bioenergy or geothermal (etc.) systems,
we may create a carbon debt by using fossil fuels in the construction, or in
the creation of the materials used. But if, over time, that system can produce
energy without increasing net carbon, then it is better than the alternative.
<BR><BR>What we have to do as well is find some way to sequester carbon, to
get us back to levels that the earth has been enjoying for the last (nearly)
half million years.<BR><BR>So, no, global warming is not really proportional
to thermal energy produced. Certainly the amount of energy we use is an
important parameter, but given current technology, what is likely more crucial
is the source of that energy, and the source of any associated carbon.
<BR><BR>If we had space-based solar energy stations beaming power to earth,
then we might face a different situation.<BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
cite=mid:EBF00BF5F1C23F469A34595277A538CC3A39DF41@ZAATRFS34.twp.co.za
type="cite"><PRE wrap="">Considering this hypothesis, shouldn't we be focusing more on conserving energy before we look at alternatives to produce more?... The Kyoto protocol has assisted in quantifying, regulating CO2 footprints as well as reducing them. </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Conservation
is crucial. It's the low-hanging fruit for having a major impact on climate
change without major changes to our systems. But it's not either/or, it's
both/and.<BR><BR>And unfortunately it's not clear how effective Kyoto is or
was. I think it's correct to say that in the best instance, the Kyoto protocol
helped rather modestly, but it was far from a real resolution of the matter.
This is an assessment, not a criticism, however. Kyoto was like the first
steps of a child learning to walk. When the child falls down, as of course it
must when it is learning, we do not throw up our hands and give up on
encouragement. In the same way, it is not hard to point to any number of
things about Kyoto-- including the fact that major economies such as the US
and China were absent as signatories-- that did not work well. There was a
scandal about fake carbon credits, for example, and a number of projects
producing some of the more potent greenhouse gases, such as tetrafluoromethane
took advantage of flaws in the system. It seems to me that while a carbon
market can be poorly designed, and moreover is difficult to get right, it can
be a very potent source of good outcomes. Similar market-based efforts have
had a good effect on acid rain in the northeastern US.<BR><BR>But as well,
Kyoto gave us the very interesting model of the Clean Development Mechanism,
within which a large number of biogas projects were developed. (If you know
about this, briefly, CDM transfers low-carbon technology to the developing
world, and savings in carbon equivalent emissions demonstrated by defined
processes can then lead to carbon credits, in this case CERs, of one kind or
another. It's a bit complex, but that's a fair summary.) <BR><BR>Because of
the nature of the beast, it is not practical to expect to gain carbon credits
from any project that is not able to aggregate a fairly substantial number of
small digesters, or which is focused on one or a few really large digesters,
but there is a real possibility, if the carbon market can get off its back and
some new Kyoto replacement is put in place, that this can be a very important
process for many of us on this list.<BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
cite=mid:EBF00BF5F1C23F469A34595277A538CC3A39DF41@ZAATRFS34.twp.co.za
type="cite"><PRE wrap="">Is the world moving towards regulations on kWhs utilized against output capacity for each specific industry (e.g. a maximum of </PRE><PRE wrap="">XkWh's per ton cement, food, mineral etc. produced) failing which these entities would face fines or closure until they comply?</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>God
only knows. Some would consider the mere possibility to be anathema, but as I
said, if it is well done, it could be a major step in the right direction. Our
problems are increasingly and strongly becoming worldwide, and really require
global-- unific-- solutions. Yet we as a species have not developed any
governmental structures with anything like the scope or power of the
problems.<BR><BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
cite=mid:EBF00BF5F1C23F469A34595277A538CC3A39DF41@ZAATRFS34.twp.co.za
type="cite"><PRE wrap="">I know my thinking is very simplistic; however it would be great to see what the rest of this forum can add to this topic. </PRE><PRE wrap="">The consequences of not debating or sharing new ideas on this topic would be dire to all that live on Earth.</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well
said.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>d.<BR>
<DIV class=moz-signature>-- <BR>
<DIV ;=""><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 110%">David William House<BR></SPAN>
<DIV style="PADDING-LEFT: 3em; FONT-SIZE: 80%">"The Complete Biogas Handbook"
<CODE><A
href="www.completebiogas.com">www.completebiogas.com</A></CODE><BR><EM>Vahid
Biogas</EM>, an alternative energy consultancy <CODE><A
href="www.vahidbiogas.com">www.vahidbiogas.com</A><BR><BR></CODE></DIV>
<DIV style="PADDING-LEFT: 2em">"Make no search for water.
But find thirst,<BR>And water from the very ground will burst."
<DIV style="PADDING-LEFT: 2em; FONT-SIZE: 80%">(Rumi, a Persian mystic poet,
quoted in <EM>Delight of Hearts</EM>, p. 77) <BR><BR><A
class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="http://bahai.us/">http://bahai.us/</A></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P>
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