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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">G'day Alastair,<br>
<br>
Since you are responding to A.D. Karve the original post by Kyle
does not really need to be included, to shorten the e-mail a bit
(some people are on dial-up lines and someone has to pay for all
the contents, so the shorter the better).<br>
<br>
Thanks for your contributions to the discussion,<br>
Happy Digesting,<br>
HOOROO<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Mr Paul Harris BEng (Ag) (Melbourne)
Visitor at The University of Adelaide</pre>
On 14/11/2012 7:35 PM, Alastair James Ward wrote:<br>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Dear
A.D. Karve,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">I disagree that manure only consists of lignin,
mucus and microorganisms. There is a lot of digestible but
undigested protein, fat and carbohydrate in manure, not to
mention a high concentration of fatty acids which are just
one or two steps in the biological pathway away from methane
production. It is not disputed that plant material usually
produces more biogas than manure, but I think that you have
to stand back and consider what factors are most important
to the very varied users of this list. I live in northern
Europe in a country with a high animal density. It has been
calculated that if we could collect all manure produced, all
organic wastes available and use all non-food producing land
for energy crop production and put it all into biogas
plants, we would still not make a very large impact on the
national energy requirement (sorry but I forget the exact
figures). However, we view anaerobic digestion as a method
of treating wastes, with the recycling of nitrogen and
phosphorous being of great importance. The fact that we can
produce energy is a nice bonus that (hopefully) makes the
whole process financially feasible. Burning manure is not a
realistic option here. As an example, we produce in excess
of 20 million fattening pigs every year, in a country of
less than 6 million people. As a result, we have a lot of
wet manure to deal with and anaerobic digestion is widely
viewed as the best available technology to do so. Pig manure
has a low dry matter content so the energy input necessary
for drying, not to mention space to do so and any other
issues regarding odour emissions etc makes the drying and
burning of wet manures impractical. We also want to keep the
N to put back into the soil and thus reduce the need for
artificial fertiliser and the non-degradable carbohydrates
in digestate are useful in maintaining soil carbon levels.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">As I understand, the original post was not from
a northern European country but there are still many
advantages to anaerobically digesting manure in warmer
climates. Biogas is certainly a cleaner and more flexible
fuel than dry material for burning, the fact that one can
quite easily run lights and a small generator on biogas
being major advantages. I came across a paper a couple of
years ago that suggested the increased use of AD in
preference to burning of organic material could be linked to
an improvement in the health of people in rural Indian
communities, specifically eye problems due to smoke as I
remember.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">Please, consider the motives of the people
posting on this list before you tell us that we are wasting
our time digesting manure. If Kyle has manure available I
suggest he continues to use it in his digester, the low
yield can be compensated for by having a large supply that
is easily available. If he has any plant wastes available
then certainly put these in as well to boost yield, but I
would not recommend actively collecting large amounts of
biomass from the surrounding area, the time and energy used
to do so may negate the gain.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black">Med
venlig hilsen</span><span style="color:#1F497D">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width:412.5pt" width="550"
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black"
lang="EN-US">Alastair James Ward</span></b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black"
lang="EN-US"><br>
Post doc.</span><span style="color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:187.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 0cm"
valign="top" width="250">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black">Inst.
for Ingeniørvidenskab<br>
</span></b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black">Aarhus
Universitet<br>
Blichers Allé 20, Postboks 50<br>
8830 Tjele</span><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black"
lang="EN-US">Tlf.: 8715 7645<br>
Mobil: 4112 2494<br>
Email: </span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#003366"
lang="EN-US"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Alastair.Ward@agrsci.dk">Alastair.Ward@agrsci.dk</a></span><span
style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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Tlf.: 8715 6000<br>
Web: </span><span
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moz-do-not-send="true" href="www.agrsci.dk"
target="_new"><span
style="color:#003366;text-decoration:none"
lang="EN-US">www.agrsci.au.dk</span></a></span><span
style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><img
id="_x0000_i1025"
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alt="Description: Logo" width="550" height="97" border="0"></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US"> Digestion
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:digestion-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:digestion-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Anand Karve<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 14. november 2012 03:50<br>
<b>To:</b> For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Digestion] Biogas production<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Kyle,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I apologise for all the unwanted advice
contained in this message, but I feel that people working on
biogas generally ignore the biological aspect of biogas
technology and work on it only from the engineering point of
view. The consortium of biogas producing microbes lives in
the guts of animals and therefore they eat what the animals
eat. This statement is supported by my own observation that
substances having a high in vitro dry matter digestibility
also give high biogas yield. In the case of ruminent
herbivores, the excreta consist mainly of lignin (from the
midribs and veins of leaves), a load of micro-organisms, and
mucus which lubricates the dung. Thus only the microbes and
the mucus represent the digestible matter in dung. Even
freshly fallen dry leaves from avenue trees yield more
biogas than dung. Therefore, we advocate the opinion that
cattle dung should be used only as an inoculum but not
as feedstock for producing biogas. Dung can be dried into
dung cakes and burned. Forty kg dung, which you are using
daily in your biogas plants would yield about US$1 in India
if it were converted into dung cakes and sold as fuel. 1
kg dung cakes would yield about 3600 kcal energy if burned.
This represents a higher calorific value than the mineral
coal that is being used in India by our thermal electricity
generating plants. If converted into biogas, 1kg (dry
weight) dung would yield only 600 kcal.
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <br>
Yours<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">A.D.Karve<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Takamoto
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:kyle@takamotobiogas.com" target="_blank">kyle@takamotobiogas.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Biogas List, <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I have been testing a plastic (LLDPE)
floating drum digester with cow dung and found that the
biogas production was lower than expected (pH 7, 19˚C)
at around 0.5 cubic meters of biogas per day at 67%
methane. The reactor volume is 3.2 cubic meters. I
discovered that our dung supplier had recently used the
antibiotic Tetracycline for a few of his cows so there
is a chance of contamination, though at this point, I
feel like the antibiotic concentration would be very low
and should not affect gas production. Does anyone have
experience with the effect of antibiotics? Also, what
gas production should I expect from a 3.2 cubic meter
reactor that I add 40 kg of cow dung to per day (plus 40
kg of water)? If I assume 15% TS and 80% of TS are VS
then the Organic Loading Rate is around 1.5 kg
-VS/m3/day and our specific methane yield is 0.07 m3
CH4/kg-VS and our digester efficiency is 0.1 m3 CH4/m3
reactor/day. Does this sound reasonable?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I have also been reviewing research
articles on gas production from cow dung but the results
vary widely and sometimes I am not sure if the reported
results are accurate. Also, research papers often use
CSTR (continuously stirred tank reactors?) at 37˚C which
makes comparing their results to my results rather
difficult. We are getting a new load of non-contaminated
cow dung today to see if that makes a difference. I'll
let you know.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I am sure this topic has been
discussed before, so I am sorry if I have repeated the
topic. I am newish to the forum so I haven't seen
anything on this yet.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks for your advice,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">Kyle<br>
Managing Director<br>
Schutter Energy Ltd.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:13.5pt"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif""><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.takamotobiogas.com/"
target="_blank">www.takamotobiogas.com</a><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Digestion mailing list<br>
<br>
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org"
target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
for more information about digestion, see<br>
Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/" target="_blank">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br>
and the Biogas Wiki <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/" target="_blank">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
***<br>
Dr. A.D. Karve<br>
Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology
Institute (ARTI)<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<br>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Digestion mailing list
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
for more information about digestion, see
Beginner's Guide to Biogas
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a>
and the Biogas Wiki <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a>
</pre>
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