<div dir="ltr">Kyle, <div><br></div><div>If the meter shuts off, where does the gas go? I am assuming it must eventually be released as raw methane. Please explain how you deal with that situation. Also, pay-as-you-go in this sense seems to disincentive productive gas use in poor population; the better the digester is working the more expensive it is per month, independent of gas need or utility. Rather than being put to productive use, excess gas above the basics needs of a user is then released into the atmosphere. Someone with no money might be temped to sabotage the digester to avoid further payment, and the bad smell that raw biogas has if it is released. </div>
<div><br></div><div>If these same users were just given an accessible fixed payment, low interest loan, they would be incentivized to maximize gas production. Production above their basic needs could then be employed as a low-cost input for other activities. This same issue happened on a large scale in Mexico, where farmers were given digesters as carbon offset projects, but not properly incentivized to use them. When economic benefit are not coupled with good management of the system, there are going to be higher failure rates. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Can you provide more details about the scheme, maybe the pricing, that may negate this impact? </div><div><br></div><div>We try not to start systems during the coldest two months, but if we do, we reduce the initial input of cow manure and focus more on effluent from digesters that are operating nearby, with bacteria that have adjusted to the colder season. Start up for us can take up to 60 days for flammable gas. If your chamber become acidified you almost need to start over. We try to dilute the systems heavily, remove the acidified material, and add as much digester effluent as possible. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Best, </div><div><br></div><div>Alex </div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 18, 2013 at 5:46 AM, David <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:davidf@kingdombio.com" target="_blank">davidf@kingdombio.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:Verdana" bgcolor="#d2fdbd" text="#400040">
<div>Kyle, Hello,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The meter system looks very interesting. How much does it add to the cost of a biogas system? </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Are you using above ground plastic tank plant, as shown in the website? If so, the gas production will be strongly affected by air temperature. Once the slurry temperature drops below about 25 deg.C, digestion will take a long time to get started. It is possible that the acid formers will be generating volatile fatty acids faster than the methanogens can work, so the plant goes acid (and smells bad). Have you measured the slurry temperatures of the plants that do not work well? </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Methanogens take a long time to grow, especially at lower temperatures. There is also the issue of temperature shock. When the dung is dumped by the cow in a cold place (less than 25 deg.C), the temperature drops (from the temperature inside the cow of about 37 deg.C). Methanogens are affected by a temperature drop of less than 5 deg.C in one day. They do not die, but go into a quiescent state and take time to start again, especially if the temperature remains low. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Best wishes,</div>
<div>David</div>
<div><a href="mailto:davidf@kingdombio.com" target="_blank"><em><font>davidf@kingdombio.com</font></em></a></div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma"><font face="Verdana"><font color="#604c78">******************************************************<br>Dr David Fulford CEnv MEI, 15, Brandon Ave, Woodley, Reading RG5 4PU<br>
Tel: <a href="tel:%2B44%280%29118%20326%209779" value="+441183269779" target="_blank">+44(0)118 326 9779</a> Mob: <a href="tel:%2B44%280%297746%20806401" value="+447746806401" target="_blank">+44(0)7746 806401</a><br>
Kingdom Bioenergy Ltd, </font><a href="http://www.kingdombio.com" target="_blank"><em><font color="#604c78">www.kingdombio.com</font></em></a><font color="#604c78">, </font><a href="mailto:davidf@kindombio.com" target="_blank"><em><font color="#604c78">davidf@kindombio.com</font></em></a><br>
<font color="#604c78"> Skype Identity: djfulford</font></font></div></div><div><div class="h5">
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>------ Original Message ------</div>
<div>From: "Kyle Schutter" <<a href="mailto:kyle@takamotobiogas.com" target="_blank">kyle@takamotobiogas.com</a>></div>
<div>To: <a href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a></div>
<div>Sent: 18/09/2013 09:35:39</div>
<div>Subject: [Digestion] Introduction to Pay As You Go Biogas and a Strange biogas startup problem</div>
<blockquote cite="http://C9397764-D1B7-4867-964B-0F203C1E9A94@takamotobiogas.com" type="cite">
<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word">Hi All,
<div><br></div>
<div>I would like to introduce our business to you all that we have been working on for the last 12 months.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>We have developed a Pay As You Go biogas meter that charges clients for gas as they use it, instead of a single high upfront cost of purchasing a whole biogas system. Our clients pay by mobile money and when they run out of credit the meter automatically shuts off. Our system also communicates to us by GSM on the status of the system (if there is any leak, pH of the system, pressure, etc) every day by text message. See a diagram of how this works here <a href="http://www.takamotobiogas.com/takamoto-pay-as-you-go-biogas-50-unit-pilot-is-a-success/" target="_blank">http://www.takamotobiogas.com/takamoto-pay-as-you-go-biogas-50-unit-pilot-is-a-success/</a> I look forward to getting your feedback.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div style="FONT:12px Calibri;MARGIN:0px">We have 70 systems installed in the last 4 months using our Pay as you go meter which is a huge success for us. However, we are having a seemingly unrelated problem with system startup and I would love to get your advice on how I figure out what is going wrong.</div>
<div style="FONT:12px Calibri;MARGIN:0px"><br></div>
<div style="FONT:12px Calibri;MARGIN:0px">When we install a biogas system we fill it with dung and water and for systems installed in the last month we have added 5% of the total volume as innoculant from a biogas systems that is working well. We have made sure that the cow dung is not from cows that have received antibiotics and the cow stalls haven't been sprayed with dissinfectant. For the first 30 systems we installed, there was no problem startingup; the first 30 required no innoculant and started producing flammable biogas in 3 days. But since then, especially during the rainy and cold season, digesters have not started up reliably. I would say that more than 50% took more than a month to work efficiently and at least three systems had their pH drop so low (around pH 6.0) that we decided to replace the cow dung. For the systems that are not starting up very well, we add 200 kg of innoculant every week until it starts working. I tested the water that our clients use to mix with the cow dung and found that it was rather acidic (pH 5 to pH7) but this was true of clients whose systems were working too, so the acidity of the water can't be the only problem. </div>
<div style="FONT:12px Calibri;MARGIN:0px"><br></div>
<div style="FONT:12px Calibri;MARGIN:0px">The symtoms we are seeing are as follow: </div>
<div style="FONT:12px Calibri;MARGIN:0px">-The pH is below 7 (but not less than 6.5) </div>
<div style="FONT:12px Calibri;MARGIN:0px">-Some gas is usually produced but it is not flammable and usually smells very bad (lots of hydrogen sulfide) </div>
<div style="FONT:12px Calibri;MARGIN:0px"><br></div>
<div style="FONT:12px Calibri;MARGIN:0px">It seems that there could be several possibilities here: </div>
<div style="FONT:12px Calibri;MARGIN:0px">1. There is a breakdown of the biological pathway. Either we are missing some bacteria or there is some inhibitor. </div>
<div style="FONT:12px Calibri;MARGIN:0px">2. There are a combination or problems involving cold temperature, rain water and low pH mixing water (though we are still having a problem after the cold rainy season). </div>
<div style="FONT:12px Calibri;MARGIN:0px">3.There is some toxic substance in our tanks or the cow dung that is causing the problem.</div></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I look forward to your feedback on both the new meter and on the startup problem we are having.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Best wishes,<br>
<div>
<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word">
<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word">
<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word"><span style="text-indent:0px;border-collapse:separate;letter-spacing:normal;font:medium Helvetica;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word">Kyle<br>Founder and Director of Technology<br>Schutter Energy Ltd.</div>
<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word"><a href="tel:%2B254%20703113383" value="+254703113383" target="_blank">+254 703113383</a></div>
<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word">kyleschutter (skype)</div>
<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word"><a href="http://www.takamotobiogas.com" target="_blank">www.takamotobiogas.com</a><br><br><br></div></span></div></div></div></div><br></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br>Alexander Eaton<br>Sistema Biobolsa<br>IRRI-Mexico<br>RedBioLAC<br><br>Mex cel: (55) 11522786<br>US cel: 970 275 4505<br><br><a href="mailto:alex@irrimexico.org" target="_blank">alex@irrimexico.org</a><br>
<a href="mailto:alex@sistemabiobolsa.com" target="_blank">alex@sistemabiobolsa.com</a><br><br><a href="http://sistemabiobolsa.com" target="_blank">sistemabiobolsa.com</a><br><a href="http://www.irrimexico.org" target="_blank">www.irrimexico.org</a><br>
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