<html><body style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12px;">G'day All,<div><br /></div><div>The difference between LPG and biogas (LNG?) is that propane and butane (the components of LPG) liquefy at low pressures at ambient temperatures (even in hot weather) but methane (the fuel in biogas) will not liquefy at ambient temperatures (it must be refrigerated - methane boils at -161.4 C at atmospheric pressure compared to -43 C and 0 C for propane and butane respectively). This means that to store compressed methane you really need cylinders like nitrogen or oxygen cylinders, rather than LPG bottles, and to work at higher pressures (which uses a LOT of energy!).</div><div><br /></div><div>I agree that biogas is better used locally in stationary applications rather than stored for transport or use as a transport fuel.</div><div><br /></div><div>Happy Digesting,</div><div>HOOROO<br /><br /><blockquote><br />----- Original Message -----<br /><div style="width:100%;background:rgb(228,228,228);"><div style="font-weight:bold;">From:</div> "For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion" <digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org></div><br /><div style="font-weight:bold;">To:</div>"For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion" <digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org><br /><div style="font-weight:bold;">Cc:</div><br /><div style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</div>Tue, 10 Jun 2014 16:40:15 +0300<br /><div style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</div>Re: [Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 45, Issue 4<br /><br /><br /><p dir="ltr">We have filled LP gas tanks with pressurized biogas before, but you really will have only a out 15-20 minutes of flame. Not enough for a BBQ. Lp gas is really transported in liquid form, which is many orders of magnitude higher pressure than you could achieve with any reasonable tire pump or other compressor. It is all about volume for biogas transport at small scale. We have shipped many gas bladders to the US, but the degree to which you are going to transport and follow US regulations is a more challenging question. </p>
<p dir="ltr">These challenges are exactly why small biogas is used primarily on site or through small local pipelines. </p>
<p dir="ltr">A </p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Jun 10, 2014 3:50 AM, "Anand Karve" <<a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">adkarve@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
Dear Jake,<br />
commercial vehicles like trucks, tractors etc. have large wheels with<br />
pneumatic tyres. These tyres are designed to withstand pressure of air<br />
filled into them. All trucks carry spare wheels and I have not heard<br />
of a spare wheel having burst.<br />
Yours<br />
A.D.Karve<br /><br />
On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Srinivas Kasulla<br />
<<a href="mailto:srinivaskasulla@gmail.com">srinivaskasulla@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br />
> Dear Mr Jake Douenias,<br />
> I do agree with the views of Dr A D Karve and every country has their rules,<br />
> regulations for storage as well as for transporting such pressurised gas.<br />
> I would suggest you to look into these rules and regulations and take some<br />
> professional help as pressurized gas is dangerous to play with.<br />
><br />
><br />
> regards<br />
> Srinivas Kasulla<br />
> <a href="mailto:srinivaskasulla@gmail.com">srinivaskasulla@gmail.com</a><br />
><br />
><br />
><br />
><br />
><br />
><br />
><br />
> On Sun, Jun 8, 2014 at 11:30 PM,<br />
> <<a href="mailto:digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org">digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>> wrote:<br />
>><br />
>> Send Digestion mailing list submissions to<br />
>> <a href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org">digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br />
>><br />
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br />
>><br />
>> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br />
>><br />
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br />
>> <a href="mailto:digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org">digestion-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br />
>><br />
>> You can reach the person managing the list at<br />
>> <a href="mailto:digestion-owner@lists.bioenergylists.org">digestion-owner@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br />
>><br />
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br />
>> than "Re: Contents of Digestion digest..."<br />
>><br />
>><br />
>> Today's Topics:<br />
>><br />
>> 1. Safe Transportation of Low Pressure Biomethane for Social<br />
>> Gatherings (Jacob Douenias)<br />
>> 2. Re: Safe Transportation of Low Pressure Biomethane for Social<br />
>> Gatherings (Anand Karve)<br />
>><br />
>><br />
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br />
>><br />
>> Message: 1<br />
>> Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2014 15:16:37 -0400<br />
>> From: Jacob Douenias <<a href="mailto:jdouenias@gmail.com">jdouenias@gmail.com</a>><br />
>> To: <a href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org">digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br />
>> Subject: [Digestion] Safe Transportation of Low Pressure Biomethane<br />
>> for Social Gatherings<br />
>> Message-ID:<br />
>><br />
>> <<a href="mailto:CAHNt06fJUYSHMe8obU4qK6QGhWQw08L2k1XNxzPJrJsF5JmQzg@mail.gmail.com">CAHNt06fJUYSHMe8obU4qK6QGhWQw08L2k1XNxzPJrJsF5JmQzg@mail.gmail.com</a>><br />
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br />
>><br />
>> Dear all,<br />
>><br />
>> I am a researcher and entrepreneur at Carnegie Mellon University and I am<br />
>> working on how to share the knowledge and benefits of simple AD systems<br />
>> with Americans.<br />
>><br />
>> My team has been investigating the possibility of converting commercial<br />
>> food waste to biogas in a low-tech 250 gallon digester, and then scrubbing<br />
>> that biogas ourselves into biomethane.<br />
>><br />
>> We want to hold events or cook-outs where local chefs could cook great<br />
>> food<br />
>> using biomethane.<br />
>><br />
>> To do this in our area the best way to share this biomethane with others<br />
>> is<br />
>> to drive it to a local gathering.<br />
>><br />
>> What do you all think the safest way to go about transporting this<br />
>> biomethane on the road would be? If we were to invest in a low-cost biogas<br />
>> inflatable (ie. PVC) and house this bag inside of a large plastic<br />
>> enclosure<br />
>> would this be relatively safe?<br />
>><br />
>> We want to share this technology and its benefits with others!<br />
>><br />
>> Can you help us figure this problem out?<br />
>><br />
>> Best wishes,<br />
>><br />
>> -- Jake Douenias<br />
>><br />
>> *<a href="http://thebiogenousproject.org/">http://thebiogenousproject.org/</a> <<a href="http://thebiogenousproject.org/">http://thebiogenousproject.org/</a>>*<br />
>> -------------- next part --------------<br />
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br />
>> URL:<br />
>> <<a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20140607/086096f7/attachment-0001.html">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20140607/086096f7/attachment-0001.html</a>><br />
>><br />
>> ------------------------------<br />
>><br />
>> Message: 2<br />
>> Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2014 07:06:52 +0530<br />
>> From: Anand Karve <<a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">adkarve@gmail.com</a>><br />
>> To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion<br />
>> <<a href="mailto:digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org">digestion@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br />
>> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Safe Transportation of Low Pressure<br />
>> Biomethane for Social Gatherings<br />
>> Message-ID:<br />
>><br />
>> <<a href="mailto:CACPy7Sf313DBW7Hn3mpM3w_SbHXizSnQZQAuTftjYNBzrtjH%2Bg@mail.gmail.com">CACPy7Sf313DBW7Hn3mpM3w_SbHXizSnQZQAuTftjYNBzrtjH+g@mail.gmail.com</a>><br />
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br />
>><br />
>> Dear Jake,<br />
>> One can fill non-pressurised pure methane into inflatable bags and<br />
>> transport it, but in this form you have to cary large volumes of it.<br />
>> Secondly, you would have to use pressure for getting the methane from<br />
>> the bag into your cookstoves. It would be easier If you could use<br />
>> pressure at the facility where you produced the methane, and filled it<br />
>> into rigid cylinders. Not only would the volume be reduced but the gas<br />
>> would flow easily from the cylinder into the burners of the stove. We<br />
>> have tested this concept as an experiment, using LPG cylinders as<br />
>> containers and a pesticide pump for filling the cylinders.<br />
>> Yours<br />
>> A.D.Karve<br />
>><br />
>> On Sun, Jun 8, 2014 at 12:46 AM, Jacob Douenias <<a href="mailto:jdouenias@gmail.com">jdouenias@gmail.com</a>><br />
>> wrote:<br />
>> > Dear all,<br />
>> ><br />
>> > I am a researcher and entrepreneur at Carnegie Mellon University and I<br />
>> > am<br />
>> > working on how to share the knowledge and benefits of simple AD systems<br />
>> > with<br />
>> > Americans.<br />
>> ><br />
>> > My team has been investigating the possibility of converting commercial<br />
>> > food<br />
>> > waste to biogas in a low-tech 250 gallon digester, and then scrubbing<br />
>> > that<br />
>> > biogas ourselves into biomethane.<br />
>> ><br />
>> > We want to hold events or cook-outs where local chefs could cook great<br />
>> > food<br />
>> > using biomethane.<br />
>> ><br />
>> > To do this in our area the best way to share this biomethane with others<br />
>> > is<br />
>> > to drive it to a local gathering.<br />
>> ><br />
>> > What do you all think the safest way to go about transporting this<br />
>> > biomethane on the road would be? If we were to invest in a low-cost<br />
>> > biogas<br />
>> > inflatable (ie. PVC) and house this bag inside of a large plastic<br />
>> > enclosure<br />
>> > would this be relatively safe?<br />
>> ><br />
>> > We want to share this technology and its benefits with others!<br />
>> ><br />
>> > Can you help us figure this problem out?<br />
>> ><br />
>> > Best wishes,<br />
>> ><br />
>> > -- Jake Douenias<br />
>> ><br />
>> > <a href="http://thebiogenousproject.org/">http://thebiogenousproject.org/</a><br />
>> ><br />
>> > _______________________________________________<br />
>> > Digestion mailing list<br />
>> ><br />
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br />
>> > <a href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a><br />
>> ><br />
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br />
>> ><br />
>> > <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br />
>> ><br />
>> > for more information about digestion, see<br />
>> > Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br />
>> > <a href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br />
>> > and the Biogas Wiki <a href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/">http://biogas.wikispacescom/</a><br />
>> ><br />
>> ><br />
>><br />
>><br />
>><br />
>> --<br />
>> ***<br />
>> Dr. A.D. Karve<br />
>> Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)<br />
>><br />
>><br />
>><br />
>> ------------------------------<br />
>><br />
>> Subject: Digest Footer<br />
>><br />
>> _______________________________________________<br />
>> Digestion mailing list<br />
>><br />
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br />
>> <a href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a><br />
>><br />
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br />
>><br />
>> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br />
>><br />
>> for more information about digestion, see<br />
>> Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br />
>> <a href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br />
>> and the Biogas Wiki <a href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br />
>><br />
>><br />
>><br />
>> ------------------------------<br />
>><br />
>> End of Digestion Digest, Vol 45, Issue 4<br />
>> ****************************************<br />
><br />
><br />
><br />
> _______________________________________________<br />
> Digestion mailing list<br />
><br />
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br />
> <a href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a><br />
><br />
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br />
> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br />
><br />
> for more information about digestion, see<br />
> Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br />
> <a href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br />
> and the Biogas Wiki <a href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br />
><br />
><br /><br /><br /><br />
--<br />
***<br />
Dr. A.D. Karve<br />
Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)<br /><br />
_______________________________________________<br />
Digestion mailing list<br /><br />
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br /><a href="mailto:Digestion@bioenergylists.org">Digestion@bioenergylists.org</a><br /><br />
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br /><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br /><br />
for more information about digestion, see<br />
Beginner's Guide to Biogas<br /><a href="http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/">http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/</a><br />
and the Biogas Wiki <a href="http://biogas.wikispaces.com/">http://biogas.wikispaces.com/</a><br /><br /></blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote></div></body></html>