[Gasification] Reinventing wheels, and fans!

Ken Calvert renertech at xtra.co.nz
Sat Nov 13 15:26:48 CST 2010


Mark, I'll bet that I have burnt out more vacumm cleaners  than you!
Dragging overly moist or overly hot gas past a high speed open motor gives 
then a very short life.
And bypassing the path around the motor means that they then overheat and 
burn out,
because they are designed to be cooled by the air that passes round them.
Nope! it was the Grainger catalog that saved me and I will be forever 
grateful for that!
Ken C.   (Yes BillI am still around  but more into  Digestion than 
Gasification.
We   have some 2000plus dairy farms down under and they are drowning in 
their own shit!)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Ludlow" <mark at ludlow.com>


> Ken/Bill/jim:
>
> High-speed rotary devices are not common provenance from developing
> countries. And static pressure is unequivocally the product of high
> tip-speeds in centrifugal devices. I used Kirby vacuum cleaner motors 
> (junk
> parts) but they sang like the Sirens from Hell!
>
> Mark
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Ken
> Calvert
> Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 10:29 PM
> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Reinventing wheels, and fans!
>
> Bill I agree with you!  When you have lived in the Third World  theres
> nothing better than the Grainger Catalog.
> And second came the Northern Hydraulics, now  Northern Tool Co.  What 
> would
> we have done without Mail order? Ken C.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Bill Klein" <Bill_Klein at 3iAlternativePower.com>
> To: "Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification"
> <gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 1:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] tests to design a new cheap gasifier fan
>
>
>> Jim, isn't eight inches a bit high? We use a lot of Cincinnati and 
>> Granger
>> fans successfully and find their designs well presented and worth
>> emulation
>> and learning from their engineering, since we lack the time to rediscover
>> wheels and sliced bread. (Thank you, Mark!)
>>
>> Respectfully,
>>
>> Bill Klein,
>> 3i
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "jim mason" <jim at allpowerlabs.org>
>> To: "Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification"
>> <gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 5:13 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Gasification] tests to design a new cheap gasifier fan
>>
>>
>> here's some update on the fan tests, including a picture of many
>> rotors tested:
>> http://gekgasifier.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1664#post1664
>>
>> the suggestions from all of you were very intersting.  especially the
>> toby and greg suggestions to try a second plate on the inlet side of
>> the rotor, and an inlet tube to minimize the space between the inlet
>> and rotor.  thank you for these suggestions toby and greg.
>>
>> we've now built these variations and many others for our 10-11" rotor
>> @4000rpm solutions.  sadly, there is has not been any great bumps in
>> vac with any of these.  efficiency may change a bit, but in the
>> pursuit of higher vac, they are not proving to be worth the effort.
>>
>> so far the only thing that seems to matter is tip speed.  you get this
>> through either rpm or diameter, or both.  as we are working with a
>> power limited 12vdc motor, which will top out rpm wise in relation to
>> rotor bite, varying rotor bite has quite a bit of impact.
>>
>> the other surprising impact is seemingly the space between the rotor
>> and the housing.  one would assume a tight fit between the rotor and
>> the housing is good.  we've found the opposite to be true.  a 1.5"-2"
>> or so open space on this rotor size vs .25" has made one of the
>> biggest impacts on vac potential.
>>
>> this open space between the rotor and fan housing is typical in the
>> professional fans you see from cincinnati fan and the like.  i decided
>> this was counterproductive for vac generation and changed it.   turns
>> out it is important.
>>
>> otherwise, we remain topped out at about 8" of h2o with the current
>> 12vdc fan motor.  this is the highest power automotive/truck type fan
>> motor we can find.
>>
>> we'll post the actual numbers in more detail soon.  in the interim,
>> the picture of many of the rotor blades and housing variations are
>> here: http://gekgasifier.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1664#post1664
>>
>> thank you goes to nathaniel at apl for running all these tests.
>>
>> jim
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 7:39 PM, Greg Manning <a31ford at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Greetings Jim, and list members.
>>>
>>> Jim, if you want a better fan, (and cheaper), simply make 2 disks (one
>>> mounts on the shaft, the other has the larger hole for the inlet.)
>>>
>>> then use strips of heavy tin (or light gauge metal) and form them into a
>>> Z
>>> shape (well, an L with a dog leg the other end, and the opposite way,
>>> somewhat like a "90 degree Z")
>>>
>>> take these and pop rivet with STEEL rivets (NOT aluminum ones) so they
>>> are
>>> sandwiched between the two disks in a radial fashion (like your welded
>>> version on your site, BUT with the extra disk on the inlet side of
>>> things.
>>>
>>> the extra disk should run as close as it can to the outer housing the
>>> Bernoulli principal will help stabilize the outer disk, and the outer
>>> disk
>>> will add about 25% more suction to the unit for the same RPM (therefore
>>> the
>>> entire unit could be built smaller and lighter).
>>>
>>> Greg Manning,
>>> Canadian Gasifier Ltd.
>>> Building Hi-Performance Gasifiers, Since 2001
>>>
>>> Brandon, Manitoba, Canada
>>> 1 (204) 726-1851
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>> [mailto:gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org]On Behalf Of jim
>>> mason
>>> Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2010 4:58 PM
>>> To: gasification at bioenergylists.org
>>> Subject: [Gasification] tests to design a new cheap gasifier fan
>>>
>>>
>>> we've been doing some work lately to design a new fan/blower that will
>>> produce the needed vac and heat tolerance for gasifier operation. as
>>> we all know, there is not an inexpensive source for such a thing from
>>> other industries and applications. thus we had to build one for the
>>> early gek kits.
>>>
>>> the original gek fan proved to not be strong enough once we finally
>>> characterized the vac numbers that produce the flow/heat rates that
>>> correspond to full tar conversion. the ejector/venturi solution we're
>>> using currently produces plenty of vac and is very flexible, but
>>> requires compressed air. this is not good for many off grid
>>> situations. thus we still need a good fan/blower source. and one
>>> that works on 12vdc, not an ac source.
>>>
>>> here's the info an pictures of our recent tests to produce this. we
>>> are working towards a much simplified solution that also gets rid of
>>> the welding to make it. this is based on the common car/truck fasco
>>> type fan motor.
>>>
>>> http://gekgasifier.com/forums/showthread.php?t=455
>>>
>>> jim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --
>>> Jim Mason
>>> Website: http://www.whatiamupto.com
>>> Current Projects:
>>> - Gasifier Experimenters Kit (the GEK): http://www.gekgasifier.com
>>> - Escape from Berkeley alt fuels vehicle race: 
>>> www.escapefromberkeley.com
>>> - ALL Power Labs on Twitter: http://twitter.com/allpowerlabs
>>> - Shipyard Announce list:
>>> http://lists.spaceship.com/listinfo.cgi/icp-spaceship.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Gasification mailing list
>>> Gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>
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>>> ylists.org
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>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
>> Jim Mason
>> Website: http://www.whatiamupto.com
>> Current Projects:
>> - Gasifier Experimenters Kit (the GEK): http://www.gekgasifier.com
>> - Escape from Berkeley alt fuels vehicle race: www.escapefromberkeley.com
>> - ALL Power Labs on Twitter: http://twitter.com/allpowerlabs
>> - Shipyard Announce list:
>> http://lists.spaceship.com/listinfo.cgi/icp-spaceship.com
>>
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