[Gasification] What happened at Choren
Pannirselvam P.V
pannirbr at gmail.com
Mon Jul 11 09:48:40 CDT 2011
Dear A.D Karve and list memebers
This is one of the good question to all of us .Who is Vinod Kosala .He
is basically an B.S (Electrical engineering), may be 70 from IIT Bombay
, where as I have done my Phd frome IIT Dellhi on Biomass pretreatments
to bioethanol in 80 before moved to northeast federal university ,RN ,
Brazil.
Vinod Khosla <http://www.forbes.com/profile/vinod-khosla> , is not an
Bolliwood super star from Bombay , who has made fortune in the last 6
years become not very easy many economic ventures as most failed ,
rather than he ia an clean energy venture capitalist , which we all need
to give an helping hand to small bienergy projects as Jeff Davis
pointed out in the recent post.Thus he is called and known in many country
as a Superstar Bombay venture capitalist , trying to make possible
distributed energy concepts , has spent the past six years or so investing
in a broad array of* clean energy-related companies and technologies.* He
readily admits that many are science experiments with a high probability of
failure , what we all see many technology paths , most failures But can
be getting closer to success with a few of them?
*Silicon Valley venture capitalist Vinod Khosla had a very good 2010. SKS,
the Indian microfinance lender he backed in 2006, went public last August;
his personal stake was worth a recent $90 million. Four other portfolio
companies were sold since May of last year. Another one, Calera, which
converts CO2 emissions from coal/gas-fired plants into cement by-products
and clean water, sold a stake to coal.*
*
*
* Here , in media he is also considered as *
He is called self made venture capitalist (like marwari ,Vysa veture
community from India )
- Country of citizenship: *United States*
- Education: *MS, Carnegie Mellon University; BA/BS, Indian Institute of
Technology; MBA, Stanford University*
In 2004 he formed Khosla Ventures.
Khosla<http://www.forbes.com/profile/vinod-khosla> ranked
number 380 on the 2010 Forbes 400 list of Richest Americans with a net worth
of $1.3 billion.
To find these investments, Khosla explained some of his operating
principles: Don’t trust forecasts. Don’t believe the experts. And invest in
companies that have a 90% probability of failure.
Nearly many world innovative start up venture he made all become
failure , but he has not loss money .here too there were many critical
posts about his company investments and about his lack of expert knowlegde
.
There are hydro and coal energy , which make biomass not viable in many
palcess .An venture capital, are more was critical as risk inovoled are
more ,but without some start up capital we can make innovation to come with
comercial sucess of bioenergy even in some placess wher the world are dark
yet.thus ffaliure and sucess depends many factors , not only the energy
density , tax and other.
For the place in dark , biomas energy can have place .
I wish sucess to Thomas to meet such super tar and bioenergy venture
capitalist and energy expert too
You can follow more details ,if you wish
Follow Vinod Khosla <http://www.forbes.com/profile/vinod-khosla>
On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 1:12 AM, Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Members,
> who is this Khosla, whose name crops up every now and then? I am
> curious because it is an Indian name.
> Yours
> A.D.Karve
>
> On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 4:01 AM, Thomas Koch <tk at tke.dk> wrote:
> > Dear Tom
> >
> > Ok - a bit more "fun" than my gasifier project - but apart from the
> hospital it is more or less the same melody.
> >
> > Give Mr Khosla my warm regards.
> >
> > It is getting late here now and my bed is missing me.
> >
> > Best regards
> >
> > Thomas
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________________
> > Fra: gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org [
> gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] på vegne af
> linvent at aol.com [linvent at aol.com]
> > Sendt: 10. juli 2011 21:42
> > Til: gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > Emne: Re: [Gasification] What happened at Choren
> >
> > Dear Thomas Koch,
> > Ontario Hydro was calling the shots and my manager did not argue
> > with them because he was intimidated by them. During the course of the
> > works, I was burned and spent a month in the hospital recovering from
> > 30% total body 3rd degree burns. I was sedated for 2 weeks. When I
> > returned to work, I had the clarity of mind due to the sedation to stop
> > the project. In the period I was in the hospital, the contractor
> > building the system had spent $33,000 on electrical work which could
> > not be accounted for. It was a total rip-off.
> > It is true that the project was my responsibility, and it is also
> > true that the client can be wrong, and how to deal with this is the art
> > of project management. It is not taught in school, most folks don't
> > learn it which is the reason that they are technicians, and it is very
> > stressful, if one knows how to play poker well, can bluff without any
> > cards, then they will make a good manager. Perhaps the best poker
> > player in the biggest game of all time was Reagan when the bluffed
> > Gorbachev on SDI.
> > I have an invitation to call Kholsa and maybe I will this week.
> > Sincerely,
> > Leland T. "Tom" Taylor
> > President
> > Thermogenics Inc.
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Thomas Koch <tk at tke.dk>
> > To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> > <gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 12:22 pm
> > Subject: Re: [Gasification] What happened at Choren
> >
> > Dear Tom
> >
> > I have had similar experinces - crashed with a 2,3 MWth 3 stage
> > gasifier for all sorts of reasons.
> > But at the end of the day there only one whom I can blame - and that is
> > myselves - mainly for being to enthusiastic and not carefull enough in
> > the first 25 % of the project.
> >
> > At a sales meeting arranged arranged by the Min of Foreign Affairs a
> > (smart) salesman selling smart metering participated. He was really
> > frustrated - he had been in this business for 7 month - seeeeeeven
> > month - and he had not recieved one order until now!!!!!
> > I told him that i have been in this business for 25 years and nor
> > recieved one oreder for one year.
> >
> > Yes I send a letter to Khosla - and got an ansver from one of his
> > assistants that did speak an other language than me. His money - his
> > decisions.
> >
> > Same thing with CHOREN - I had numerous discussions with several
> > customers that had identified our plug feedcr as an ideal feeding
> > device for a CHOREN plant - but at that stage they where all ready
> > running out of enthusiasm - at least I was not happy about their
> > answers - so nothing happend.
> >
> > But - i can rest asure you that here in Denmark it is not only
> > golddiggers that can loose commen sense and hundres on millions DKK (
> > 1/5 in $).
> > Our 2 national 2 gen bioetanol from straw projects have just been
> > evaluated by Risoe.
> > INBICON - DONGs (100 % ovned by the danish state) project was evalauted
> > to "Calculations of the economy in the IBUS concept shows that the
> > production of bioethanol from straw would not be social welfare and
> > economic profitability. The extended economic analysis shows a
> > significant negative NPV for the project." (from google translate)
> >
> http://www.biopress.dk/projekter/kronologisk/5a4cbf0991b435ea988abbd69332184c
> > It it reported in English - but run it through Google translate and it
> > will give the overall picture if you want to se an example of how
> > taxmoney can off set common sense.
> >
> > The interesting question is now - can we use this experince to some
> > thing that is pointing more to the future the writing reports about
> > failed gasification projects?
> >
> > Best regards
> >
> > Thomas
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________________
> > Fra: gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > [gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] på vegne af
> > linvent at aol.com [linvent at aol.com]
> > Sendt: 10. juli 2011 19:37
> > Til: gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > Emne: Re: [Gasification] What happened at Choren
> >
> > Dear Thomas Koch,
> > I presume that you tried to relay your views to Vinod Kholsa, the
> > founder of Sun Microsystems and some thing with AMD. All successful IT
> > types that have not a clue about energy projects. There was a speech
> > given to a group of high powered financial types at an energy
> > conference once by a wise person who asked the audience who had
> > operated a power plant, negotiated a PPA, done due diligence on a power
> > plant project and out of several hundred or so, only one or two raised
> > their hands. The rest were refugees from the IT world,looking for the
> > next gold mine.
> > I have had many experiences with even my own personnel about how
> > things need to be done to work right. The heavy duty power struggles
> > within Ontario Hydro between engineering groups within OHT were
> > legendary and resulted in the project having 200% overruns in time and
> > cost, ultimately failing due to OH's loss of several nuclear reactors
> > and being broken up, canceling the project. The damage to Thermogenics
> > was irreparable. Whatever can't go wrong will.
> > Sincerely,
> > Leland T. "Tom" Taylor
> > President
> > Thermogenics Inc.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Thomas Koch <tk at tke.dk>
> > To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> > <gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Sent: Sat, Jul 9, 2011 8:35 pm
> > Subject: Re: [Gasification] What happened at Choren
> >
> > I forgot a NOT - I did not see any evidence !!!
> >
> > ________________________________________
> > Fra: Thomas Koch
> > Sendt: 10. juli 2011 04:32
> > Til: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> > Emne: SV: [Gasification] What happened at Choren
> >
> > Dear Tom Taylor
> >
> > I did see any evidence that steel was developed at Range - I
> > interpreted as one of the arguments that was used to fool them selves
> > and maybe the investors also.
> >
> > I tried to communicate my views to the VC that provided the money to
> > Range - just to try to find out how they are thinking - but they did
> > not want to discus with me.
> >
> > Did Shell report reasons why they pulled out of CHOREN?
> >
> > Best regards
> >
> > Thomas
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________________
> > Fra: gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > [gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] på vegne af
> > linvent at aol.com [linvent at aol.com]
> > Sendt: 9. juli 2011 22:17
> > Til: gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > Emne: Re: [Gasification] What happened at Choren
> >
> > Dear Mr. Koch,
> > I certainly appreciate your insight to the management and
> > technical issues at both Range and Choren. You know that Shell pulled
> > out of Choren some time ago because of these reported reasons.
> > A few years ago our government used the language "too big to fail"
> > when it bailed out financial institutions. This is the same problem
> > with these large projects, they convince themselves that because they
> > have so much money that they couldn't fail. They also believed it and
> > made decisions accordingly.
> > I appreciate the information on Range's development of a special
> > steel. I wonder where it is now? it is also interesting to see that
> > serious, seasoned project managers are not in sight, but come from the
> > IT world (as did Range's financing).
> > Of course, when Farmland Industries hired Texaco to refit the
> > Coolwater (originally near Barstow, California) coal gasifier to
> > petcoke, they fired them after 6 months because they didn't do much
> > besides spend money. Farmland took over the work themselves and made it
> > work, but it drove them into bankruptcy.
> > There are a few consultants out there who can do a productive
> > contribution, but they have to be very, very carefully managed or else
> > they spend lot of your money.
> > Sincerely,
> > Leland T. "Tom" Taylor
> > President
> > Thermogenics Inc.
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Thomas Koch <tk at tke.dk>
> > To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> > <gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Sent: Sat, Jul 9, 2011 11:54 am
> > Subject: Re: [Gasification] What happened at Choren
> >
> > It is a very interesting question you raise.
> >
> > What can be learned from Range Fuels and from CHOREN
> >
> > I have visited both companies trying to help them feeding biomass into
> > their reactors and spend quit a lot of brain work on both.
> >
> > One common thing is that both did not answer simpel normal questions.
> >
> > I did not understand the energy balance on Range and the Mass balance
> > on CHOREN.
> >
> > And questions was ansvered by business development people.
> >
> > I remember a meeting at CHOREN where I asked about the low melting ash
> > components - where did they go and how did it work?
> > The business development manager started a long specialtive explanation
> > about how they washed it out of the char - after it had been taken out
> > of the pressurised enclosure - and then the char was put back into the
> > process with out these troublesome ash components.
> > My business development manager had $$$ in his eyes - imagine all the
> > feeders we could sell - (we counted 7 pressurised in and outlet on each
> > gasifier!!!!) if we could just focus on this problem instead of
> > discussing ash and other irrelevant issues.
> > At the site visit 2 of their engineers told me that they had tried to
> > draw the attention of the management to this problem with little
> > succes.
> > My imagination tells my that you can identify 50 similar issues at
> > CHOREN.
> >
> > Similar I had a discussion with a manager at RANGE - he had realised
> > that the complexity could potentially be a problem. He was a former
> > succesfull business man from Apple.
> > I tried to explain him the consequenses of thermal transient in a
> > startup situation when you have square hot geometries. He then
> > explained me that at Range they had invented a refractory steel that
> > could stand 100 degree higher temperatures than the most expensive
> > Haynes cobalt/steel alloy. I congratulated him with this invention and
> > predicted that he would be come a VERY rich man just by this singel
> > invention.
> > I dont think he understood one word of what I said to him.
> >
> > The lesson I have learned is that all projects my full fill 5 rules.
> > 1 First law of thermodynamics - Mass will not be made from nothing and
> > can not dissapear
> > 2 Second law of thermodynamics - No matter what you do you make a loss
> > :-)
> > 3 First law of money - Money will not be made from nothing but can
> > disappear
> > 4 Common sense mut be applied to all elements in the process.
> > 5 You can fool your selves but only others if you pay them their
> > salary.
> >
> > And making projects by consultants - FORGET IT!!
> >
> > Best regards
> >
> > Thomas Koch
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ______________________________________
> > Fra: gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > [gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] på vegne af
> > linvent at aol.com [linvent at aol.com]
> > Sendt: 9. juli 2011 17:32
> > Til: gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > Emne: Re: [Gasification] What happened at Choren
> >
> > Dear Tom Miles and the list:
> > One thing that should be learned is that when there is a lot of
> > money around, the tendency is to hire a lot of folks and then the
> > pressure is on to burn money fast. I also see "financing issues with
> > start up of commercial plant" to read, too expensive, has technical
> > issues, vis a vis Range Fuels and others. This is a repeat of even the
> > Downdraft system from Grabowski under Syngas co. This was even
> > partially funded in the 80's by a group which had provided funding to
> > Thermogenics and the lead financier called me several years after
> > funding Syngas to say that i was right, it would fail. They decided to
> > not fund Thermogenics because of the lack of PhD's who could argue that
> > their process was better. Not having a degree made my arguments not
> > listened to.
> > The question arises as to what to do with a large staff which
> > initially does engineering work, and then when the design is completed,
> > what are they doing next until the design is completed and operational?
> > This is why to some extent, this work being done by consultants may be
> > better of a business structure.
> > Unfortunately, the financial world relies on degrees for results
> > which paves the way downhill. A multiple PhD in mathematics who was
> > Sandia National Laboratories' lead mathematician, with Stanford and
> > Caltech on his CV, had a saying on his door "A thermometer is not the
> > only thing with degrees and no brains".
> > The more of these large operations to hit the walls, the more
> > difficult the field will be to get serious project financing and move
> > forward. There are others slated to fail in near term from what I have
> > been hearing, high profile supposedly "successful commercial
> > operations".
> > Sincerely,
> > Leland T. "Tom" Taylor
> > President
> > Thermogenics Inc.
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Dl <d0xunt at gmail.com>
> > To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> > <gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Sent: Fri, Jul 8, 2011 4:43 pm
> > Subject: Re: [Gasification] What happened at Choren
> >
> > http://www.choren.com/en/information-and-press/press-releases/
> >
> >
> > Going into bankruptcy in Germany.
> >
> >
> > Dan Lacy
> >
> > The best way to compile inaccurate information that no one wants is to
> > make it up.
> > Scott Adams
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jul 8, 2011, at 3:25 PM, "Tom Miles" <tmiles at trmiles.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > This Google alert abut Choren should be on interest to anyone who has
> > follwoed biomass pyrolysis an dgiasification to syngas. See the Google
> > Alert link below. Tom News1 new result for gasifier What Happened
> > at Choren?
> > Consumer Energy Report
> > The gasifier would be scaled up from the pilot plant scale of 1 MW th
> > to 45 MW th . Shell's Fischer-Tropsch technology was being used in the
> > plant, ...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> --
> ***
> Dr. A.D. Karve
> President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
>
> *Please change my email address in your records to: adkarve at gmail.com *
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--
************************************************
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ASSOCIATE . PROF.
Research Group ,GPEC, Coordinator
Computer aided Cost engineering
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