[Gasification] Continuing

Pannirselvam P.V pannirbr at gmail.com
Fri Jul 22 06:55:43 CDT 2011


 Dear  TR

  All   your question are more fundamental and  always very good
questions. There are modern biotechnological approach in which you select
the bio catalyst such as  CO Shift to methane and co2 , in which  the
substrate  need to be  pure and sterilized , so that other will not grow,and
build up.This is what Philip who follow  reliable  earlier work get
the success.This  can be correct approach if the substrate  is not mixed
one.This approach  is biotechnological correct one of Philip


Another approach can be  called  ecological approach  in which mixed
substrate can attract bacteria in substrates , can build up intermediate
products  , and hence build up mixed microbial population as  done using cow
down  as starter  culture  .In the case of biogas, we have sugars , acids,
proteins, h2, co2 , this can also work .This is the approach(ecologically
correct one ) of  Anand. This ia also correct one

 The question asked  by TR is very good one, but yes  or no answer  is  too
much simplified answer fora complex problems .
the right question can have right answer.The question is ok , the answer
cannot be  yes or no.

The final  conclusion is  can be yes and no
Yours sincerly
Pannirselvam




On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 4:39 PM, Thomas Reed <tombreed2010 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Anand
>
> My impression is that bacteria adjust to conditions:  If you build it, they
> will come.
>
> Yes or no?
>
> Tom Reed
>
>
>
> Dr Thomas B Reed
> President, The Biomass Energy Foundation
> www.Woodgas.com
>
> On Jul 20, 2011, at 3:06 PM, phillip manske <pdmanske at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > This is my bacteria. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
> > My bacteria is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I
> > must master my life.
> > My bacteria, without me, is useless. Without my bacteria, I am
> > useless. I must fire my bacteria true. I must shoot straighter than my
> > enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me.
> > I will...
> > My bacteria and myself know that what counts in this war is not the
> > rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, nor the smoke we make. We know
> > that it is the hits that count. We will hit...
> > My bacteria is human, even as I, because it is my life. Thus, I will
> > learn it as a brother. I will learn its weaknesses, its strength, its
> > parts, its accessories, its sights and its barrel. I will ever guard
> > it against the ravages of weather and damage as I will ever guard my
> > legs, my arms, my eyes and my heart against damage. I will keep my
> > bacteria clean and ready. We will become part of each other. We
> > will...
> > Before God, I swear this creed. My bacteria and myself are the
> > defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the
> > saviors of my life.
> > So be it, until victory is America's and there is no enemy, but peace!
> >
> > <pdmanske at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> This pathway should be the most simple so its likely a good place to
> >> start.  I'm not certain what to do first.  I liked shopping for
> >> reactors and why not?  Shopping is fun.  I was unaware there are large
> >> (1000 gal) glass lined reactors.
> >>
> >> Where to start?  In my clumsy manner I say get a microscope and then
> >> the strain ($250 from ATC)
> >>
> >> Look at the freeze dried 'crobes under the scope.  Should see shoe
> >> leather plus the "meat" packing that comes with the strain.
> >> Re animate using only distilled water and examine under scope
> >> Re animate and add nutrients and look under scope
> >>    See how long  that batch lasts
> >>
> >> Re animate using nutrients plus extra feed like fructose or yeast
> extract
> >>  This should be enough to keep the culture alive for a regular
> >> lifetime of the 'crobes.
> >>
> >> PV, is this close?  Are my techniques sound?
> >>
> >> My technique is a combination practical effort plus me releaning lab
> techniques.
> >>
> >> I'm not clear on how to do census.  You are supposed to sample from
> >> the quadrants and the center.  Anaerobes are supposed to collect away
> >> from O2  and that means the bottom of the vessel.
> >>
> >> I don't know how long that nutrient will last.  The CO and CO2 feed is
> >> like making the 'crobes live on bananas.  Bananas are healthy but its
> >> not nutritious enough for life, hence the vitamin pill like nutrients
> >> that are necessary.  The calories come from the gases, the vitamins
> >> come from the nutrients.
> >>
> >>
> >> I wanted to hire someone to do this because I'm just gonna bash around
> >> int he early stages and then likely later on too.  Maybe i can get by
> >> with a consult.
> >>
> >> I can't do mcuh until I get my libary card, there is mcuh more
> >> material to read than what I have collected so far.
> >>
> >> Phillip
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 11:53 AM, Pannirselvam  P.V <pannirbr at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>  Dea Dr T.Reed and Philip
> >>>      The  CO2  and  CO from   producer gas    can provide acetate, thus
> ,
> >>> there is  no  need for carbohyrates , this  low quality producer  gas
> can be
> >>>  upgraded. The system  is more solid gas tricking filter bio reactor .
> >>>   Dr Thomas  is correct   that  the mixed bacteria systems can   , at
> room
> >>> temperature   solid liquid slurry in    know biodigster system  the
> reaction
> >>> he wrote , but  let input of CH2O , more CO and CO2  , via adoptation
>  need
> >>> to be done for  gas solid biodigestors
> >>>
> >>>   Unlike conventional bio digestor, there is a need  to make
> >>> the correct mixed bacteria  that can make  acetate (acids) from gas  ,
> then
> >>>  methane  is synthesised  by hydrogen bacteria via CO water shift  to
> >>> hydrogen, which readily combine with  CO  to make  methane , as well as
> >>> CO2.( At  atm pressure , low temperature ), wher as very high temp used
> to
> >>> make co  shift via thermoconversion system
> >>>  The problems with this new system , unlike conventional biodidestor,
> is
> >>>  the bacter cell  growth  and viability   without carbohydrate (CH20) ,
> >>> unlike the system  which Dr.Reed has correctly wrotefor  the  biogas
> >>> production where  ther is also parelel  auto catalytics bacteria
> >>> reproducation .Philip Manske  here in his recent post has reported
> thatv the
> >>> CO make bacterial cell gorwth and viabilit  possible .This  is very
> >>>  positive  good results  .Biodigestor  bacterial  catatyst has the
>  problem
> >>> of  useful active life time ,The  biocatalysts , microbes ,do not have
> >>> unlimited  life time of activity .Need to be replaced .This is
> considered to
> >>> be  negative point , but can be managed, with economic loss too
> >>>    Instead of  separating  and upgrading  SNG  obtained   from low
> quality
> >>> producer gas  via  bioprocessos , the direct use  of this for charcoal
> >>> gasification can  give biochar and  high quality   syngas  for metanol
> or
> >>> ethanol  via bio or thermoconversion .
> >>>   Thus small biorefineray of coupled biotherm process , origionally
> >>>  patended  by IGT, USA can  be adopted  and make posible for CHP
>  energy
> >>> production  and methanol Co production  as small grid based
> biorefinery.
> >>>
> >>> Dr Reed  , can be consider as  origional thinker  and father who had
>  long
> >>> time vision of sustainable  syngas, methanol frrom  biomass and
> bioenergy
> >>> power .His long time dream  can be reality as compared  to biomass
> ethanol
> >>> projects sustainabilty of  several waste biomass  residues upgrading
> into
> >>> biopower .As   the gasoline , ethanol ,methanol can be well mixed , can
> go
> >>> well  more sustainable transportation fuel ate present and future
> >>> For the same yet proven technology are needed , Integrated However
> >>>  the Biotherm process  ,CHP and methanol  are  complex system ,need
> good
> >>> system design  and engineering work  from diversified experts, but not
>  as
> >>>  such as big petro refinery  projects
> >>> Our lists do have  this diversity , dynamic members , thus make
> possible  to
> >>> compare known technology , innovate new one do , get help from experts
> from
> >>> this list made posible by TOM
> >>>    Some off topics are  good , but need not exceed  the main topics too
> >>> Your sincerely
> >>> Panirselvam P.V
> >>> Brazil
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 5:51 PM, Thomas Reed <tombreed2010 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Dear Phillip
> >>>>
> >>>> The power generation sounds interesting.
> >>>>
> >>>> What is the feed sock for the digester?  Carbohydrates?
> >>>>
> >>>> 2 CH2O ===> CH4 + H2O.
> >>>>
> >>>> A dr, carve in India has built a small  digestor that produces all the
> >>>> methane needed to cook the meals.
> >>>>
> >>>> I suppose a larger digester could supply the electric power too.
> >>>>
> >>>> Keep talking...
> >>>>
> >>>> Tom Reed
> >>>>
> >>>> Dr Thomas B Reed
> >>>> President, The Biomass Energy Foundation
> >>>> www.Woodgas.com
> >>>>
> >>>> On Jul 19, 2011, at 12:03 PM, phillip manske <pdmanske at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi Tom,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Its good to hear from you.  I taught ESL in Korea for six years and
> >>>>> instead of coming back to the US directly, I went to Kiev and stayed
> >>>>> in East Europe for year.  I went to Moldova, Poland and Romania too.
> >>>>> I lived on the money I saved while in Korea and my Fed government
> >>>>> pension.  I was poor there and I didn't do much but work on a website
> >>>>> that was inspired by my Fed time.  I made a large Freedom of
> >>>>> Information Act program and I did most of the work in cafe's with
> free
> >>>>> WiFi.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Melitopol is in the Russian half of Ukraine, I generally like the
> >>>>> Ukies better than the Russians but I think the women are more
> >>>>> attractive.   I've been to Melitopol twice already.  No one visits
> >>>>> Melitopol, its kind of a hole.  Anna is an ethnic Russian living in
> >>>>> Ukraine.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://khersongirls.com - that is the agency I recommend.  Consider
> >>>>> all of the others as scams.  I've met the owner and I've been to the
> >>>>> office many times.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If you want to get involved with my "Gold" project you are welcome.
> >>>>> Its gonna take some money but not much.  My investor advisor says to
> >>>>> make the lab reactor and then the GEK scale reactor.  I think the lab
> >>>>> reactor will look like this...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://www.chemglass.com/product_view.asp?pnr=CLS-1404
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I don't want to appear as a Johnny come lately into biofuels but it
> >>>>> kind of looks that way.  I was an electrican in the navy a long time
> >>>>> ago and I said I'd return to power generation if the things were
> >>>>> right.  The concept is complicated, the practice is easy.  Once the
> >>>>> gens run, there is no work to do.  You just need to check the engines
> >>>>> twice a day and that takes 20 minutes max each time.  You really have
> >>>>> the whole day off for the next fifteen years if you get a contract.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That's whats up.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Phillip
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 7:31 AM, Thomas Reed <tombreed2010 at gmail.com
> >
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> So, do you have an office in Melitopol?  Looks like it's close to
> the
> >>>>>> black sea.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Tom
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Dr Thomas B Reed
> >>>>>> President, The Biomass Energy Foundation
> >>>>>> www.Woodgas.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Jul 18, 2011, at 10:25 PM, phillip manske <pdmanske at gmail.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi Dr. Reed,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks for the concern.  I had to pay bills for two months and then
> I
> >>>>>>> needed some cash so I can go marriage agency dates in Ukraine.  I
> >>>>>>> lived in Ukraine for a year so I kinda know whats up.  I found a
> woman
> >>>>>>> there that likes me.  She looks like Meagan Fox but she has larger
> >>>>>>> breasts.  She sells cosmetics and lives in Melitopol.  I work next
> to
> >>>>>>> a corporate lake and the lake is feed by storm run off.  The lake
> has
> >>>>>>> some good wildlife and I have taken to  turtle rescue when the
> chelons
> >>>>>>> get stuck in the drainage pipes.  I got ten already.  I have a
> snapper
> >>>>>>> hatchling and hand sized softshell on a shelf by my desk.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> That's pretty cool Phil but it has nothing to with biomass.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I don't talk about gasifiers here because I don't know Jack.
> >>>>>>> Sometimes you just need to shut up and listen.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Yea so I decided I should read about the matter.
> >>>>>>> This book is great.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> http://www.amazon.com/Transportation-Biofuels-Production-Biodiesel-Chemistry/dp/1849730431
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I got an eCopy if you want to see the relevant material.  The
> methane
> >>>>>>> part looks way doable and in fact I'm slowly working on that.  I
> found
> >>>>>>> sciencedirect.com which has a great index and all of the papers on
> the
> >>>>>>> matter are availalbe for free at the uni library but I don't have
> my
> >>>>>>> Indiana drives lic/ID yet so its another two weeks.  The papers
> come
> >>>>>>> to $4500 if I have to pay.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I wrote an executive summary for someone at GoBig and I after I
> sent
> >>>>>>> that off they asked for an executive summary and asked a few other
> >>>>>>> questions.  I made a good post at GEK and I got ass kissy with Mr.
> >>>>>>> Mason trying to amend my earlier offences.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Whats up with you Tom?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Warmest Regards
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Phillip
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Phillip Manske
> >>>>>>> 195 w Puetz Rd h-114
> >>>>>>> Oak Creek WI, 53154
> >>>>>>> pmanske at afuels.net
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Alchemy Fuels Executive Summary
> >>>>>>> Saturday, July 16, 2011
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The Energy Policy Act of 2005 has mandated that investor owned
> >>>>>>> utilities must provide a certain amount of the energy they provide
> >>>>>>> must be sourced from renewable sources.  This amount has been
> >>>>>>> regulated to grow both now and in the future.  To date, wind and
> solar
> >>>>>>> sources have been providing most of this energy while biomass
> sourced
> >>>>>>> energy has lagged.  Utilities have been rejecting new applications
> for
> >>>>>>> wind and solar energies while courting biomass providers as many
> slots
> >>>>>>> are still open.  Alchemy has determined a course to make low cost
> >>>>>>> biofuel to fulfill these requirements is a realistic and profitable
> >>>>>>> goal.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> After reviewing scientific literature on the matter I, (working as
> >>>>>>> Alchemy Fuels) have decided that a two stage reactor designed to
> make
> >>>>>>> methane is the most efficient route to a biofuel called “biogas”.
> >>>>>>> This method was developed early in the biofuels research efforts
> and
> >>>>>>> then abandoned in favor of ethanol and other more lucrative
> >>>>>>> transportation fuels.  Methane is a well founded and well
> functioning
> >>>>>>> fuel for generators designed to work with natural gas.   This
> process
> >>>>>>> is well reviewed and appreciated by the scientific community for
> its
> >>>>>>> ease use and lack of exotic requirements.   It can be described as
> a
> >>>>>>> methane digester without the required tons of manure feedstock.
>  The
> >>>>>>> research was pioneered by a scientist named Gaddy who founded a
> >>>>>>> company called BRI.  The process is referred as the microbial
> catalyst
> >>>>>>> cellulosic fuel pathway.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The process uses the output from gasifiers that use wood mass as a
> >>>>>>> feedstock.  A handful of gases are provided by the gasifier with
> the
> >>>>>>> most important being carbon monoxide and the lesser gases being
> >>>>>>> hydrogen, carbon dioxide and methane.  All of the gasses are used
> in
> >>>>>>> the process.  The first stage of the process uses a bacteria called
> p.
> >>>>>>> productus that uses the CO for growth and CO2 for the production of
> >>>>>>> acetate which is the feedstock for the second and final stage where
> a
> >>>>>>> bacteria called m. barkeri uses the acetate and hydrogen to make
> >>>>>>> methane.  Methane, unlike ethanol , does not need distilling which
> >>>>>>> saves considerable effort, energy and money.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The market for the gas or gas use comes from the aforementioned
> lack
> >>>>>>> of biomass energy providers.  Contract length is from 10 – 20
> years,
> >>>>>>> amount of sale is typically 800 kilo watts per hour and the
> >>>>>>> compensation is from $.10 - $.15  per Kw hour.    Providers are
> >>>>>>> typically allowed to provide 24 hours a day.  Demand may vary but
> >>>>>>> demand is typically strong.  Biogas contracts are generally
> designed
> >>>>>>> for methane digesters but this type of process meets the legal
> >>>>>>> definition of biogas even without the $1 million digester.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This is a niche market but it can provide excellent returns and a
> >>>>>>> number of contracts can be signed simultaneously.   Sales are
> assured,
> >>>>>>> no distribution network is required.  Plants like this operate at a
> >>>>>>> technician level and not an engineer or scientist level.  There are
> >>>>>>> few critical points that may induce failure.  The required
> insurance
> >>>>>>> is difficult to get but I have found a provider and at least one
> work
> >>>>>>> around method.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Plants should be located near the biomass source to save money on
> >>>>>>> transportation and when the gas is made, it can be shipped at much
> >>>>>>> less expense to the generating facilities .   The plants will be
> >>>>>>> filled with wood biomass, gasifiers and vats that look like
> >>>>>>> microbrewery vats.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Being averse to large expenditures, I recommend a modest approach
> to
> >>>>>>> first make a five gallon reactor using bottled gas, then a system
> >>>>>>> using a small gasifier and then finally a system scaled to produce
> >>>>>>> fuel at the rate to meet the 800 kwh limit.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The described  process above is worth study and investment.  The
> >>>>>>> science is sound, the investment and risk is small, operating
> overhead
> >>>>>>> is very low and sales are guaranteed.  It appears margins should be
> >>>>>>> very wide unlike typical margins that are available to investors.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Questions may be directed to me at the email address above.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Regards
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Phillip Manske
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 9:46 PM, Thomas Reed <
> tombreed2010 at gmail.com>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Phil
> >>>>>>>> I haven't heard your name for.a decade or so.  What cooks in
> biomass?
> >>>>>>>> Tom Reed
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Dr Thomas B Reed
> >>>>>>>> President, The Biomass Energy Foundation
> >>>>>>>> www.Woodgas.com
> >>>>>>>> On Jul 18, 2011, at 7:04 PM,
> >>>>>>>> "pbadger at bioenergyupdate.com"<pbadger at bioenergyupdate.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless
> >>>>>>>>
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> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> ************************************************
> >>> P.V.PANNIRSELVAM
> >>> ASSOCIATE . PROF.
> >>> Research Group ,GPEC, Coordinator
> >>> Computer aided  Cost engineering
> >>>
> >>> DEQ – Departamento de Engenharia Química
> >>> CT – Centro de Tecnologia / UFRN, Lagoa Nova – Natal/RN
> >>> Campus Universitário. CEP: 59.072-970
> >>> North East,Brazil
> >>> *******************************************
> >>> https://sites.google.com/a/biomassa.eq.ufrn.br/sites/
> >>>  and
> >>> http://ecosyseng.wetpaint.com/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Fone ;Office
> >>> 84 3215-3769 ,  Ramal 210
> >>> Home : 84 3217-1557
> >>>
> >>> Mobile :558488145083
> >>>
> >>> Email:
> >>> pvpa at msn.com
> >>> panruti2002 at yahoo.com
> >>> pannirbr at gmail.com
> >>> pvpa at msn.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
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> >>>
> >>
> >
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-- 
************************************************
P.V.PANNIRSELVAM
ASSOCIATE . PROF.
Research Group ,GPEC, Coordinator
Computer aided  Cost engineering

DEQ – Departamento de Engenharia Química
CT – Centro de Tecnologia / UFRN, Lagoa Nova – Natal/RN
Campus Universitário. CEP: 59.072-970
North East,Brazil
*******************************************
https://sites.google.com/a/biomassa.eq.ufrn.br/sites/
 and
http://ecosyseng.wetpaint.com/


Fone ;Office
84 3215-3769 ,  Ramal 210
Home : 84 3217-1557

Mobile :558488145083

Email:
pvpa at msn.com
panruti2002 at yahoo.com
pannirbr at gmail.com
pvpa at msn.com
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