[Gasification] Any experience with Stak Properties 10K gasifier?
Mark E. Ludlow
mark at ludlow.com
Thu Jun 23 01:28:57 CDT 2011
Dear Kevin,
>From a broad perspective, it is very useful. Bill seems to be saying that
there is no compact prescription for making this work; bur everything must
be constrained by gasification chemistry and regulated by applicable
process controls.
The "restricted throat" paradigm of the Imbert puts a lot of restrictions on
fuel morphology that add to the complications of the chemical reactions that
must occur. Who wants to spend a substantial portion of their energy output
preparing fuel? What the World Needs Now is a gasification technology that
is more catholic in its acceptance of fuels--from rice husks to dried
MSW--with adaptive control algorithms that account for the variability that
is encountered in real-world situations. Of course, I realize that I am
stating the obvious. But more restrictions on fuel specifications amount to
lower probability that gasification of biomass will ever have a measurable
impact on anything but "niche" applications.
Best, Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
[mailto:gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of
kchisholm at ca.inter.net
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 8:38 PM
To: gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org
Subject: Re: [Gasification] Any experience with Stak Properties 10K
gasifier?
Dear Bill
Thank you for your reply. Hopefully, some list Members will find it helpful.
Best wishes,
Kevin
Quoting Bill Klein <Bill_Klein at Powerhearth.com>:
> Hi, Kevin.
>
> So many questions, so little time. I shall attempt to give you some
> answers, but they are subjective to linear hearth architecture. My
> responses will follow your text and be preceded by "==>".
> ###
>
> 1: For a given gasifier design, feed size is extremely important
>
> ==> I believe feedstock size is no more important than feedstock
> preparation. There is no magic involved in the process, but there are
> basic laws that must be observed if one is to make a good gas. Let's
> face it, applied science still rules the roost.
> ###
>
> 2: For an otherwise good gasifier design and feedstock selection, the
> presence of leakage is extremely important. (Presumably, this means
> air leakage IN, in a suction system, and gas leakage OUT in a
> pressurized system.
>
> ==> I was taught that a cornerstone of making good gas is intake air
> management. It controls the temperature which enables proper
> conversion. If one does not have an airtight system, one cannot possibly
manage air flow.
> ###
>
> 3: Testing of the design and fuel selection, and final "tuning" is
> extremely important.
> ###
>
> : FUEL SIZE
> The "Engine Grade Gas"(EGG) successes we see on this list seem to fall
> into two categories:
> A: Those who use chunkwood fuel (such as Wayne Keith, Mike Larosa,
> Powerhearth, Vesa Mikkonen)
> B: Those who have instrumented systems and do extensive testing and
> utilize "on line controls."
> C: Chip fueled gasifier systems, such as Greg Manning's system. Greg
> has reported extensively on the use of screened wood chips being used
> in his "Heating Grade Gas" (HGG) system, but I am not sure if his
> system has produced EGG on a continuous basis. (Perhaps Greg could
> clarify whether or not his system will produce EGG on a consistent
> basis.)
>
> ==> The Powerhearth is easily able to gasify chunks, chips and
> briquettes with equal success and without adjustments other than
> calibration and setting the data points into the program/PLC.
>
> Personally, I like chunks for their char quality.
> ###
>
> While chunkfuel is the preferred fuel size, what would you suggest as
> the minimum size of fuel that teh "Home Gasifier Builder" should
> consider, to avoid major problems, and to have some reasonable
> expectation of success?
>
> ==> Kevin, it would be unfair of me to pretend to know the proper
> answer. I have never built a gasifier outside of a sheetmetal shop,
> with our own drawings and using uniform materials. I have, however,
> seen many units made privately, all of round hearth architecture. My
> response to similar questions has always been the same. I don't know,
> but don't be afraid to experiment. Make friends with your gasifier and
> learn what she likes. Never put the cart before the horse.
> ###
>
> More specifically, what do you feel is the likelihood, and the
> circumstances under which a Woodgas List Member could build an EGG
> gasifier that ran reasonably well using screened wood chips that were
> available free from a Tree Surgeon, or right-of-way clearing Contractor?
>
> ==> I have no experience in that area. We buy many tons of chips from
> local sawmills and with our system, moisture content is a non issue.
> ###
>
> 2: AIR LEAKAGE
> Would you have any suggestions on the best way to test for leaks, and
> to diagnose the probable area of leakage? Would you have any
> suggestions on the amount of air leakage that would be acceptable?
>
> ==> Proper welds and proper gaskets, plenty of pipe dope at threaded
joints.
> Build airtight and, if done properly, it stays airtight. No amount of
> leakage is acceptable if you are serious about good gas!
> ###
>
> 3: TESTING and TUNING
> Would you have any guidelines or suggestions for testing and
> evaluating a home built gasifier, such as:
> 3:1 What is a good way to measure tar content of gas?
> 3:2 With the test you suggest, is there any way quantify it, so that
> teh Builder would know if the tar content is low enough to allow a
> typical engine to run for a minimum of say 1,000 hours?
> 3:3 What would you recommend as the minimum requirement for test
> equipment for the home builder?
> 3:4 What tests would you suggest?
> 3:5 When designing and building a gasifier, what are the minimum
> provisions that the Back Yard Builder should make for testing and
> tuning? (eg, Viewports, temperature and pressure measuring points,
> etc)
>
> ==> Kevin, I don't know. I would think a backyard builder would have a
> plan, an agenda and a budget.
>
> We shall be assembling and testing a model before shipping and
> commissioning. The process lasts about a week and a half and is pretty
> intense. If there is any interest in dropping in for the sake of
> observing and/or learning, contact me off list. We would be pleased to
> welcome you to a Vermont summer of long hours, but good coffee and tea.
> ###
>
> Kevin, I'm sorry I couldn't be more helpful, but it seems an exercise
> in futility to pontificate about that which one has a high degree of
ignorance.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Bill Klein
> 3i
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your helpful comments will be very much appreciated, and will go a
> long way to preventing Home Gasifier Builders from wasting time on
> gasifier and fuel combinations that are very likely to fail.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Kevin
>
>
> Quoting Bill Klein <Bill_Klein at Powerhearth.com>:
>
>> Hi, Kevin.
>>
>> Your question of feedstock size is rather interesting and one to
>> which I can easily relate. That said, I hope the following provides a
>> little bit of insight and doesn't aggravate the experts on this list.
>>
>> Before we ship our units, they undergo several tests.
>>
>> Test 1 is a 24 hour non stop test in which we push all of the limits.
>> Said differently, we look for the weaknesses, leaks, etc.
>> Test 2 is another 24 hour non stop test. It provides us with systems
>> calibration.
>> Test 3 is a 100 hour non stop test. During this period, all of the
>> necessary data points are established for our automation and
>> management system.
>>
>> Why am I describing an important phase of our unit fabrication,
>> truncated as the description may be?
>>
>> I wanted to point out the importance of properly sized feedstock for,
>> if there is a screw up with gas flow or aglomeration, the test is
>> stopped and rerun.
>>
>> When we test, depending upon the customer's intended feedstock, we
>> test and evaluate the gas from at least three feedstocks, one of
>> which is a close approximation of that which the customer will use.
>> Size of the feedstock is critical unless one really enjoys non stop
>> runs, grumpy technicians and buckets of coffee.
>>
>> Pellets: We won't use them. They are seldom uniform (cross
>> sectionally) in moisture content and generally sealed. With heat,
>> they shatter magnificently, leaving a pile of sawdust. The exception
>> seems to be pelletized switchgrass: a great feedstock.
>>
>> The chip size we like resembles an Oreo cookie, squared. As an
>> approximation it works to gauge sizes. Overall length or width
>> uniformity doesn't seem to be as critical as thickness. Still, there
>> is a lot of flexibility and smaller sizes are okay to integrate, as
>> an exception, not the rule.
>> Gasifiers are not stoics. Built properly, they have some versatility,
>> but you have to make friends with your unit before you learn her
>> secrets. Then you merely have to respect them. .
>>
>> Charcoal briquettes as a feedstock too often creates a huge problem
>> as they plug the grate with compacted fines.
>>
>> The best and my most favorite feedstock is still chunks. 2x4x4 - or
>> briquettes of almost anything.
>>
>> Kevin, I would have gladly answered earlier, but you posted hours
>> after my bedtime. We old folks need our beauty sleep.
>>
>>
>> Respectfully,
>>
>> Bill Klein
>> 3i
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
>> To: <gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 10:13 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Any experience with Stak Properties 10K
>> gasifier?
>>
>>
>> Dear Bill
>>
>> Quoting Bill Klein <Bill_Klein at Powerhearth.com>:
>>
>>> To underscore Greg's email, repeating what I was taught, "The
>>> quality of the gas is in direct proportion to the quality of the
>>> char." Larger feedstock makes great char!
>>
>> # OK!! Do you think one can make "Engine Grade Gas" using:
>> 1: Wood pellets, 1/4" diameter, 1/4" to 1/2" long?
>> 2: Wood chips screened to -1/4", +1/8"?
>> 3: Wood chips screened to -1/2",+ 1/4"?
>> 4: Wood chips screened to -1", + 1/2"?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Kevin
>>>
>>>
>>> Respectfully,
>>>
>>> Bill Klein
>>> 3i
>>>
>>> http://www.3iAlternativePower.com
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Original Message -----
>>> From: Greg Manning
>>> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 7:40 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Any experience with Stak Properties
>>> 10K gasifier?
>>>
>>>
>>> Pete, (and list)
>>>
>>> What, and how big, are the fuel chunks ?
>>>
>>> most gasifiers do NOT like wood chips, or really "fine" fuel, the
>>> interstitial space the gasifier is designed to run with, is
>>> generally much larger than that of chips or fine feedstock, using
>>> the correct sized fuel, in-turn, lowers the reaction core
>>> temperature, thus creating more, and more consistant amounts, of CO.
>>> (the main flamable gas, in woodgas). (H2 and CH4 are simply "bonus"
>>> gases.....)
>>>
>>> Greg Manning.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 6:01 PM, Pete & Sheri
>>> <spaco at baldwin-telecom.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Has anyone here had any experience running an engine using the
>>> Stak Properties 10K gasifier?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> They tell me that the JXQ-10 gasifier is a forerunner to this
>>> machine. I have one of those. I?d like to be able to correspond
>>> with others who have this style of machine. Currently I am having
>>> mixed results getting a steady flow of good gas to run my 6.5 KW
>>> Onan 1800 rpm genset from it. On Saturday, I got it to deliver
>>> about 3.8 kw for about 12 minutes, but then the quality of the gas
>>> deteriorated. On Sunday a similar test produced worse results, but
>>> over about a one hour period, with gas quality again deteriorating
>>> as the test went proceded.
>>>
>>> I am not writing to waste the time of senior members here by
>>> asking them to troubleshoot my problems, without enough info. Just
>>> want to show what kind of issues I have for those who might be
>>> involved with similar equipment.
>>>
>>> My goals are to: 1. See how much power I can squeeze out of
>>> the generator for an extended period of time with this gas source,
>>> and 2. To get some actual experience making woodgas.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Looking back over my videos and notes, I can see a dozen or two
>>> things that I could do better next time.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Pete Stanaitis
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Greg Manning,
>>> Brandon, Manitoba, Canada
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
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