[Gasification] Identifying and fixing technical and commercial roadblocks to commercial small-scale CHP gasifiers

Thu Jun 28 22:24:33 CDT 2012

Thomas (and list).

What is you definition of a "Commercial Product" ?

to my knowledge, ALL gasification systems have "consumables", if a gasifier
runs for 600 and then needs a consumable > would this fit the bill ? or
does it need to run 4000 hours before replacement ??

IMO a timed "shut-down" (much like big business does, Koch Fertilizer for
example does one every 200 some odd days, or thereabouts). Is
considered commercial.

Or does it need to be like a gas furnace, that runs for 20 some odd years
every winter, with only a filter change (most, don't even get that).

I'm asking, simply because I would like your opinion.

Greg

On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 9:56 PM, Thomas Koch <tk at tke.dk> wrote:

> Tom
>
> From my experiences I have learned that many unexpected problems caused by
> high temperature and reducing atmosphere can come after 500 - 2000 - 8000
> hours.
> I would be surprised if no new unexpected problems would show up after
> 15000 - 30000 hours operation.
>
> I can only agree that we should applaud any body that can make a gasifier
> that can operate for 600 hours - but we should remember that we are far
> from commercial products at this stage
>
> Best regards
>
> Thomas Koch
>
>
> -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
> Fra: gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:
> gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] På vegne af Tom Miles
> Sendt: 29. juni 2012 02:59
> Til: 'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification'
> Emne: Re: [Gasification] Identifying and fixing technical and commercial
> roadblocks to commercial small-scale CHP gasifiers
>
> David,
>
> Generally if a piece of equipment can get through commercial production for
> 600 hours you will have discovered most of the unanticipated problems.  It
> usually takes a couple of months of round the clock production to get to
> that point. Beyond that it takes another couple of thousand hours to verify
> operation and increase reliability. When you're hitting over 90% production
> every 24 hour day then it should get boring. With industrial biomass
> systems fuel quality, fuel sizing, drying, and feeding account for about
> 95% of the unintended stoppages/outages/downtime. If you are ready for
> commercial production then you have already solved the downstream problems
> like figuring out how to make good quality gas, gas cleaning and cooling,
> and gas use, whether it is a boiler or engine.
>
> The variety of biomass feedstocks in type, form size and availability is
> usually a challenge. A device is often developed on fuels with certain
> specifications. When things fail vendors complain that the fuel was
> non-spec. It happens all the time but it doesn't really help anybody. As a
> supplier you have to be prepared to supply or specify the fuel system along
> with the reactor.
>
> A major challenge for development companies has less to do with the
> technology and more to do with how you run a business. Some are business
> failures more than technology failures.  People just have different talents
> for running startup businesses. Technology developers chronically waste a
> lot of money up front, delay in building and testing prototypes, have slow
> turnarounds on improvements, use equipment that won't stand up to the
> abrasiveness of biomass, etc. It doesn't take long before you run out of
> money. As in other businesses the good strategy is probably to develop a
> good product and then sell it to a company in a similar business, like a
> boiler company, that can take advantage of manufacturing capabilities that
> are used to produce other products.
>
> Sometimes the gasifier is just a "money magnet," a piece of pretty steel
> to attract investors. It is assumed that you can get it to work was you
> burn through the start-up funding. Sometimes it seems like we are very
> inefficient at using money invested in gasification but we may be no
> different than other industries.
>
> A common mistake is to try to export a gasification products too soon. In
> other equipment we say that you need to develop a domestic market before
> you try to export it. In the 1970s we saw a lot of gasifiers start out in
> universities then the prototypes were exported to developing companies
> before they were fully developed. Usually they rusted there unless the
> engineer or scientist who developed them showed up. Then they are very
> expensive to try to improve or maintain.
>
> We have many companies offering gasifiers have built one prototype and
> claim performance well beyond their demonstrated capabilities. It's fine
> for the prototypes and the first several commercial units to fail as along
> as the supplier stays with it and makes things work. We tend to criticize
> prototypes or initial installations that fail. We should applaud the
> success of those who have recovered from the failure by identifying the
> problem an
> designing around it in time to get back into production.   We all have
> failures as we develop new systems. Sometimes developers can't continue
> development because the client has failed financially. Usually the grant
> money runs out before you get through commissioning.
>
> Those are just some of the many hazards in developing gasification systems.
> Add all that to a limited and fickle market and it's actually a pretty
> high risk activity. As they say, to make a small fortune in gasification
> you need to start with a large fortune.
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of David
> Coote
> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 5:11 PM
> To: gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: [Gasification] Identifying and fixing technical and commercial
> roadblocks to commercial small-scale CHP gasifiers
>
> Thanks, Tom.
>
> A very useful study would be identifying at good resolution the reasons
> why small-scale CHP gasifiers fail technically and/or struggle commercially.
> Once that's clearly established suitable focus can be brought to bear on
> what is going wrong between pilot/demonstration and commercial phases with
> a view to fixing the issues. I think the same could apply to 2nd generation
> biofuels.
>
> Regards
>
> David
>
> > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
> > Fra: gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > [mailto:gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] P? vegne af Tom
> > Miles
> > Sendt: 28. juni 2012 03:14
> > Til: 'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification'
> > Emne: Re: [Gasification] Which of the gasifiers Tom listed are meeting
> > Knoef's commercial criteria
> >
> > David,
> >
> > It looks like you have the makings of a survey. :-/
> >
> > Harrie's criteria are good and would be difficult for most suppliers
> > to
> meet. We want gasifiers to be as readily installed and operated as boilers.
> >
> > We should determine what needs to be done to get more suppliers over
> > all
> of these hurdles.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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