[Gasification] Sweden's trash project
LINVENT at aol.com
LINVENT at aol.com
Mon Nov 5 17:25:14 CST 2012
Dear John,
I have repeatedly stated that the major issues with gasification lie
with the developers of the technology relying upon engineering, not
innovation. There are no degrees granted for innovation at schools and engineering by
itself does not lead to innovation. I have seen the same flow diagrams for
systems for decades and they don't work. A list of the failures is on our
website on the homepage, Comparative Gasification. Simple solutions exist as
we have developed and they are very successful, partiularly in cleaning the
gas, even removing sulfur from tire derived gas without standard S removal
systems used.
Other innovations include higher throughput, better range of fuels,
improved energy efficiency, all of which are needed for economic operation.
The US Army has attempted for at least 7 years to develop a mobile 2
ton/day MSW to power system to replace the handling, diesel use for mobile
incinerators, and had dropped the program until they saw two of our systems
operating last summer, in which they reinstated the program and reissued the
Broad Agency Announcement to include this program as no one had been able to
do it after many years and millions of dollars including General Atomic,
SAIC, and others trying to. Unfortunately, due to a partnering arrangement with
a DoD Contractor that didn't work out, the Army is still in need of a
satisfactory solution.
Unfortunately, without these innovations in the field, other benefits
such as synfuels, inexpensive energy production, use of broad based biomass
or other feed is limited, and so is the field. Because of the string of
highly capitalized failures and lack of deep technology personnel, read: lots of
PhDs, the investment community doesn't believe it can be done.
The investment community is putting money into renewable energy
projects that are going to take major hits from the NG pricing and government
subsidies going away, similar to what happened when Reagan took office to the
Carter renewable energy programs.
Thermogenics has received major inquiries from various countries, this
morning alone, Ghana, Uganda, India, Cyprus, Greece for our systems to be
used for their energy needs. India has massive waste problems and their
expensive incinerators or other systems don't work. One Indian group sent me a
list of gasifier companies fhey investigated on the internet and found them to
be bogus, to the point of having hefty fines for emissions when they
claimed not to have emissions. Some were greater than incinerator operations.
As to your specific interest, we can address it better than anyone
else and if you want to have some idea of what can be done, send me the
specifics.
In a message dated 11/5/12 5:05:47 PM, john.pearce at manildra.com.au writes:
>
> Dear Robert, Tom , and other knowledgeable people
>
>
>
> Your responses to the Swedish trash importing and energy production
> business raise two particular issues that I believe need to be responded to
> separately, and I invite comments on both. These are
>
> - technological adequacy
>
> - economic viability
>
>
>
> On the first, an internet search delivers a range of quite low tech to
> ultra-high tech solutions to delivering Energy-from-Waste, each claiming to
> be the solution to the challenge - few seem to have large commercial scale
> plants operating on biomass such as forest waste/ MSW/ or similar. How do
> you select the sheep from the goats?
>
>
>
> On the second, it seems to me that economic viability can only be
> assessed on the basis of local issues and constraints together with the CapEx and
> OpEx aspects of the technology selected plus likely energy outputs and
> usage efficiencies.
>
>
>
> Of these cost of feedstock, haulage costs to plant, local environmental
> constraints, local taxes, local incentives, etc - all these can be
> accurately determined at the proposed E-f-W site but how do you get reliable CapEx/
> OpEx and energy outputs?
>
>
>
> I am investigating potential replacement of a major portion of coal and
> natural gas usage for steam/heat generation in a food processing operation
> with MSW amd maybe some forest waste. Gasification and co-firing of the
> boilers is being proposed. Technologically, does this seem "sensible" with
> presently available plant? Does it really need high-end technology?
>
>
>
> Kind regards
>
>
>
> John Pearce
>
>
>
> Manildra Group
>
> Australia
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dr R. John Pearce
> R&D Manager
> Manildra Group
> Phone: 61.2.4423.8259
> Fax: 61.2.4423.8258
> Mobile: 61.4.1291.9000
>
>
>
>
From: Gasification [mailto:gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org]
On Behalf Of linvent at aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2012 4:29 AM
To: gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org
Subject: Re: [Gasification] Sweden's trash project
Dear Robert,
Los Angeles hauls it's green waste to east of Phoenix and dumps it.
Getting a permit for an outhouse in the South Coast Air Quality Management
District (Los Angeles area to San Bernadino and south) is virtually impossible.
We had spent $300,000 on a waste to ethanol project (cellulosic ethanol) in
the Cabezon Indian tribal land area only to find out there were no air
credits available and the tribe adhered to the SCAQMD standards although they
didn't have to.
Several groups have tried to do gasifiers in cities and have run into
permitting, zoning, NIMBY issues and given up. In other instances,
Occidental Chemical build a 200 tpd plant near San Diego, ran it for 8 hours and
scrapped it after spending huge sums on it. With the failures of many attempts
at gasification, in particular MSW, the investment world is very leery of
getting involved.
One group I have been working with spent 5 years working on a PPA (not
in this country) and it was issued in September.
In areas where there are mandated renewable energy portfolio mandates
where the utility has to supplement with renewable energy purchases, you may
not be able to get a Power Purchase Agreement as they don't need to issue
one if they are mandated to buy one, or they will not give you renewable
energy premium pricing as they can buy credits cheaply and the DoD has used this
to keep their renewable energy pricing down, at least one branch of the DoD
claims this.
It is a very complicated and in many cases, stupid process. As an
example, if distributed systems were in the Los Angeles area, the truck traffic
would be greatly reduced, reducing the emissions from truck traffic, but
this doesn't matter in the emissions counting.
With natural gas pricing low, it is creeping into the power costs even
in the East Coast and will shelve many renewable energy projects.
Sincerely,
Leland T. "Tom" Taylor
Thermogenics Inc.
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Gersch <Robert at rkgenterprises.com>
To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification <
gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Sent: Mon, Nov 5, 2012 10:12 am
Subject: Re: [Gasification] Sweden's trash project
Tom,
Thanks for the input. The NPR story makes us sound like idiots for not
having similar programs in the US. Somehow, I had assumed that only with tax
incentives, could such a program be viable. I am probably the most ignorant
member of the group, but I have wondered why each city in the US doesn't
install a gasifier plant to deal with the waste brush. For the ignorant, it
would seem viable and reduce some of what we bury. Waste wood from
homebuilding, old concrete forms, old fences, Christmas trees, old pallets and all
the trees that are knocked down for new construction plus the trees that are
trimmed equate to a lot of BTU's. I am in San Antonio and we at lease make
mulch from so of the waste wood.I assume most other US cities do at least
that.
Thanks
Robert Gersch
----- Original Message -----
From: linvent at aol.com
To: gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2012 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: [Gasification] Sweden's trash project
There are quite a few waste incinerators in Europe. Italy has sent it's
trash by train to Germany to be incinerated. There are some gasifiers there
also. One Norwegian firm has an incinerator design that doesn't produce dioxins
above regulatory limits, but all are very expensive, one 300 tpd gasifier
system is valued at $300mm. Some of the existing incinerators do not meet
emissions levels, but the government has not shut them down as there is no
option otherwise. EU capital and sale of electricity pricing is heavily
subsidized by the government and does not compete in other parts of the world. One
group had 4 dual stage "gasifier" but actually combustor systems in Europe,
all have been shut down for emissions reasons, lack of continuing subsidies,
expense of operation and the only remaining one operating that I know of is
in Japan.
Sincerely,
Leland T. "Tom" Taylor
Thermogenics Inc.
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Gersch <Robert at rkgenterprises.com>
To: 'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification' <
gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Sent: Mon, Nov 5, 2012 9:47 am
Subject: [Gasification] Sweden's trash project
Below is a link to a NPR story on Sweden's conversion of trash to energy.
There is no mention of the method used. Does anyone know if this is
gasification? If you read the article, other countries are paying Sweden to take
their trash and Sweden produces energy from it. Is there a chance that this
could actually be cost effective?
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/10/28/163823839/sweden-wants-your-trash?ft=3&f=111787346&sc=nl&cc=es-20121104
Thanks
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to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
Gasification at bioenergylists.org
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site:
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Sincerely,
Leland T. "Tom" Taylor
President
Thermogenics Inc.
701 Madison St. NE
Albuquerque, NM 87110
project site: 511 Ave. G
Lubbock, Texas 79401
505-463-8422
www.thermogenics.com
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