[Gasification] Small steam systems plus gasifiers for electricity

Pannirselvam P.V pannirbr at gmail.com
Sun Dec 1 18:26:43 CST 2013 

       Helo
 Jeff,Thomas ,Tom  , Sander and other member


  The good  point Tom  wrote  the by product economic  value from biochar
 is very important  point . Also the heat recovery   , resuse for heating
and for  cold food  storage   can be   another  possibility  .Thus  the
economical objetive of low operational  cots , and also   the   very low
 investments  of  low tech   can be  postive  factor of steam microturbines
 generations ,as  yet  young  not matured as  that of ic engine  .As energy
, economics  too matter.

Ic engine or steam microturbines  is not a matter of  energy efficiency
alone

  About 70 rice husk based gasifiser  and ic engine systems of 32 kW each
have been installed in rural areas of the  rural area of India , mainly in
Bihar and Uttar Pradesh, providing electricity needs of people in about 200
villages and hamlets. “Each system is capable of providing electricity to
more than 200-250 households and other establishments for 5-6 hours daily
in the evening with an average load of 25-30 kW,The rice husk based
off-grid power plants which generate clean energy through biomass gasifier
system for lighting the rural areas of the country which are devoid of
grid, can also help to  attend the  cold storage of food  products .Thus
 energy lost  in low  tech  can provide economic   apportunity for  biochar
fertilizar , even the  c02  recoved via simple water absorption as liquid
fertlizer ..Thus   the  low tech steam production  need not be  an dynamite
explosion problems  with , corrosion , as  in olden time project design,
steam can be  easy viable soltion provider for complex energy  problems in
rural areas integrated  to agroindustry and food processings with modern
 materials  of old steam engines , with  better  steam uses

 Low tech  ceramic  biomass charcaolmaking  kiln , charcoal gasifiers , Low
tech   ,simple older  piston   steam engine , low cost tubular boiler
integrated steam piston engine was easily    built , made posible  to  run
in rural remote area of semi arid dry land using direct  combustion of
 biomass , but this also failed .This  can not  be atributed  be due to
 thermodynamic and  eletrical energy point of view , but also the economic
apportunity lost along with the wasted energy

******************************************************************************************
Dr.PAGANDAI .V.PANNIRSELVAM

*Email:pannirbr at gmail.com <pannirbr at gmail.com> and ufrngpec at gmail.com
<ufrngpec at gmail.com>*

*Office email:gpecufrn at biomassa.eq.ufrn.br
<email%3Agpecufrn at biomassa.eq.ufrn.br>*
**********************************************************************************************




On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 9:20 PM, Tom Miles <tmiles at trmiles.com> wrote:

> Thomas,
>
>
>
> In most cases that we have looked at you need about US$0.25/kWe for power
> and low cost fuel to make a gasifier CHP system work. In the case of the
> California gasifiers they are using waste fuels, generating at peak
> electricity rates (~$0.18/kWh), and selling biochar as a co-product at
> $0.75/lb. There is no market for recovered heat.
>
>
>
> It is very difficult to be a small power producer in the US because there
> is opposition from the utilities that buy the power. Small systems are
> usually charged very high fees (demand charges, connection fees) and
> offered low prices for the power. It often takes political persuasion to
> make a small plant into a commercial position.
>
>
>
> In our Alaska projects high energy prices (~$0.65/kWh) provide an
> incentive to generate power but running a gasifier is a lot of work. Fuel
> oil might be expensive but it is convenient so there is less enthusiasm for
> it. Often the heat load is residential. Buildings and housing are small and
> disperse  which means that you have to build an extensive district heating
> system to offset high fuel oil costs. There are always challenges.
>
>
>
> Gasification is a new management activity for remote communities or small
> business. They should always start with a boiler or heat demand. The best
> place for a boiler or gasifier is where you are already handling biomass
> fuels and can fully benefit from combined heat, power and biochar.
>
>
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> *From:* Gasification [mailto:gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org]
> *On Behalf Of *Thomas Koch
> *Sent:* Sunday, December 01, 2013 2:56 PM
>
> *To:* Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> *Subject:* Re: [Gasification] Small steam systems plus gasifiers for
> electricity
>
>
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> It is real pleasure to participate in a debate there are contributions
> like this.
>
>
>
> First Stirling – look here --
> http://ing.dk/artikel/stirling-dk-om-vaekstfonden-solgte-et-ufaerdigt-produkt-158574- run through Google translate. The company got over 30 million € and
> produced a total of less than 15000 hours operation – but employed an army
> of business developers – big headed incompetent greedy venture capitalist
> investors combined with too optimistc predictions for the performance of
> the technology.
>
>
>
> Hjordkjær – heavily supported by public funds would never have worked In a
> competitive environment.
>
>
>
> Our ORC poultry friend. Lets assume he operates 4000 hours pr year
> (probably optimistic) and produce (25 kWe*4000 hours) 100.000 Kwh. The
> plant lasts for 10 years and he spends 10 % of the investment in O&M and
> the interest on the investment Is 5 %.
>
> If he invest 280.000 $ the yearly costs are (10%+10%+5%)*280.000 = 70.000
> $ = 0,7 US$/kWh  -- if he spends 1.000.000 the electricity price is 2,5
> $/kWh.
>
> And there are potentially a risk that the “cooling agent” will escape to
> the atmosphere and be a very potent greenhouse gas
>
>
>
> Gasifiers – I think it a good idea to ask you selves why it might be a
> good idea to build a gasifier. I personally try to maintain the idea that
> it is my work – and thus I should earn money.
>
> Here in Denmark there has been a change in the price structure in the
> energy market. Electricity is traded internationally – heat is more local.
>
> In 2002 I started building a 2,3 MW (700 kWe) biomass gasifier. At that
> time the electricity price was (or at least we where dreaming about it
> would be) approx. 20-25 UScent/kWh. And the heat was much less. But as the
> electricity marked liberalized the price on electricity dropped to 10,5
> UScent/kWh (0,6 DKK) and the heat became much more expensive.
>
> The fundamentals of the economy of a biomass gasifier for CHP is that you
> bye a cheap fuel (eg wood) you produce 20-30 % expensive product –
> electricity -  and 50-60 % cheap waste heat at a temperature level where it
> is saleable.
>
> But when I had to start the gasifier (and had spend 3 mio $)  the prices
> structure had turned the business model upside down making it MUCH more
> expensive to produce heat by a well working gasifier (that does not exist
> as far as I know) than by a wood chip boiler.
>
> My conclusion was to stop developing risky technology and become a
> consultant for some years.
>
>
>
> I am very interested to see the business plan that – According to the
> rules for getting public funds have to follow an application – was made to
> support the  DTU-Weiss gasification project.
>
>
>
> If anybody is interested there is a 2,3 MW 3 stage TK Energi gasifier for
> sale – if we can get 5000 $ more than scrap value we are happy . Never
> operated in this size – but 18.000 hours on a 400 KW pilot gasifier.
>
>  http://noest.all2web.at/news/docs/1278_TK_Energi_ebs_DK.pdf
>
>
>
> My conclusion is that energy is too cheap to justify the CAPEX and OPEX of
> a gasification system unless it is VERY big.
>
>
>
> But it is still my hobby J
>
>
>
> But for work I only work with large pressurized entrained flow gasifiers.
>
>
>
> Thomas
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Fra:* Gasification [mailto:gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org<gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>]
> *På vegne af *Tom Miles
> *Se**ndt:* 1. december 2013 20:58
> *Til:* 'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification'
> *Emne:* Re: [Gasification] Small steam systems plus gasifiers for
> electricity
>
>
>
> Thomas,
>
>
>
> We have seen four or five biomass fired Stirling companies fail in the
> last 15 years. Successful Stirling engine companies  supply the solar and
> recreational markets with very small systems and run mostly on LPG.
>
>
>
> Stirling DK had the potential to fill an important niche. I liked their 9
> kWe and 35 kWe units. It seems likely that they failed for business reasons
> as much as technical reasons. They were very slow to get organized and
> capitalize on the early experience of the DTU units. It is not clear why
> they charged so much.
>
>
>
> We have a few small scale 50 kWe Organic Rankin cycle (ORC) generators in
> operation in the US. They seem to work very well for clean waste heat like
> exhaust from diesel gensets or biogas. One of my clients is testing one on
> diesel exhaust. http://electratherm.com/
>
> The owner of a poultry farm tells me that his ORC unit works fine but the
> heat exchanger from his poultry litter fired gasifier keeps plugging up.
> (We have been there before.)  He gets 20-30 kWe from the $280,000 machine.
> The gasifier and ORC system cost $1 million. There seem to be conflicting
> reports about how much the system is actually run.
>
>
>
> Steam systems suit district heat or industrial settings where much more
> steam is produced than needed for electricity otherwise load balancing is a
> problem. We have seen a 1 MWe wood boiler and steam turbine system fail at
> a prison due to the inability to balance heating and electrical loads. We
> saw many small turbines in the 250 kWe-1.5 MWe range installed in the wood
> industry in the 1970s and 1980s. It was common to see a sawmill generate
> higher pressure steam and use a 500 kWe backpressure turbine to reduce the
> pressure for distribution to a large number of lumber dry kilns. We have
> lost most of our sawmills in our region and electricity is cheap so we
> haven’t seen any new systems installed. I visited a 600 kWe Russian turbine
> at a district heating plant in Hjordkær, Denmark in about 2004. At the
> time they had been running since 1997 and were happy with it. They were
> serving about 700 homes and a chocolate factory. It seemed like a good
> match.
>
>
>
> In recent years we have seen a couple of small scale steam systems in the
> 250 kWe to 2 MWe range. One supplier will provide a 1 MWe modular fluidized
> bed steam system for $5 million. These need to be installed in industrial
> or utility setting for reasons cited by others.
>
>
>
> We were disappointed last year not to find more gasifiers with
> demonstrated performance in the 2 MWe scale for the Alaska project.
> Nexterra was just installing their 2 MWe Jenbacher system at University of
> British Columbia. Babcock Volund gave us a budget price but didn’t think
> putting a unit in Alaska was interesting to them. Kawasaki Heavy Industries
> seems to have abandoned their program that was based on the CarboConsult
> downdraft gasifier. Their principal proponent of the system retired. Etc.
> And we didn’t want a gasifier with a wet cleaning system. We did receive
> budget proposals from some companies that had 150 kWe to 250 kWe gasifiers
> but that didn’t have field performance data to demonstrate their production
> with multiple units.
>
>
>
> We still need to demonstrate more viable small scale systems with any
> technology.
>
>
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Gasification [mailto:gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org<gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>]
> *On Behalf Of *Thomas Koch
> *Sent:* Sunday, December 01, 2013 9:42 AM
>
> *To:* Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> *Subject:* Re: [Gasification] Small steam systems plus gasifiers for
> electricity
>
>
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> Striling.dk just went banckrupt – and gasification gas is Dynamite.
>
>
>
> Thomas
>
>
>
> *Fra:* Gasification [mailto:gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org<gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>]
> *På vegne af *Jeff Davis
> *Sendt:* 1. december 2013 18:37
> *Til:* Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> *Emne:* Re: [Gasification] Small steam systems plus gasifiers for
> electricity
>
>
>
> I would have to agree with Steve. Steam is a lot like playing with
> dynamite. A gas producer and an off the shelf engine is the system to beat.
>
> Too bad nobody is working on a Stirling engine for using excess heat.
>
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
> On 12/01/2013 11:29 AM, sabbadess at aol.com wrote:
>
> I found that small steam at the residential scale is just a bad idea.
>
>
>
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