<html><head><base href="x-msg://23/"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-weight: bold; "><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="4"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px; "><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">ERB & Associates, Inc.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="4"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#053DF5"><a href="http://www.erbsteam.com">www.erbsteam.com</a></font></span></font></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px; ">913.579.7688 mobile</span></div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="4"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#FF1E18">1.866.610.3477<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>RapidFAX</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>(you must dial the "1")</font></span></font></span></span>
</span></span></span></div>
<br><div><div>On Jan 1, 2011, at 8:13 AM, Bruce Jackson wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Hey,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">When this thread started I was shocked. I am very literal, and don't like terms to be confusing. At the time I couldn't remember why it bothered me, but I knew I didn't like jim's talk of drifting meanings. I knew he was right, so I gave that to him. Me, I built a gas producer, and it makes producer gas, because that is what the boys back in 1906 called it. I figured I better stay out of it because I am so archaic and not hip. Then....</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> jim asked about how C-2C connections work. Suddenly, terms like motor, generator, engine, phase, and voltage take on very precise meanings. In the common, non-literal world out there, you can have an engine being called a motor. You can have "split phase" power. When jim started reading all the common language (with their meaning drifts) he ran head on into why we should be very precise about our terminology, why its so confusing to not be literal.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> He was trying to learn how an engine that turns a three phase motor, can be connected with two banks of capacitors, and used as a generator. This is confusing enough, then when you throw in the common misconception about the generated power's phase being "split", well it made a great example of what this thread was all about.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> Its almost funny...</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">An engine is a motor, but a motor uses electricity.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">A motor is never an engine.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">A motor is a generator when its spun by an engine or another motor.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">A generator is a motor (on a garden tractor), but mostly its a generator.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> So I guess I am firmly back home in the literal camp, and just ask that if you change the meaning of producer gas, that you let me know, so I mumble something else when the neighbors see me shaking my grates or stoking my hoppers.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Yours in literal obfuscation,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Bruce Jackson<br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; "><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">From:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Bill Klein <<a href="mailto:Bill_Klein@3iAlternativePower.com">Bill_Klein@3iAlternativePower.com</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">To:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:a31ford@gmail.com">a31ford@gmail.com</a>; Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification <<a href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Sent:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thu, December 30, 2010 10:26:28 AM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Subject:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Gasification] Syngas on Wiki_<br></font><br>Well said, Greg!<br><br>During this discussion several well meaning folks have alluded to the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>rationalization that states if an academic paper uses the term "syngas"<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>rather than "producer gas" or if a governmental body does the same, it<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>becomes some sort of proof positive that the terms are not only<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>interchangeable, but we can ignore specificity in favor of a simple catch<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>all generic term. All because some professor wrote a paper and, though well<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>intentioned, ignorantly used the wrong word!!? Or someone in the government<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>demonstrating equal ignorance?<br><br>What a joke!<br><br>Let's face it. Those that can, do! and those that cannot, teach! Those that<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>cannot teach work for the government. It's that simple.<br><br>Producer gas, by any other name is still producer gas and if you don't do a<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>good job making it, the resulting mess is sticky, smelly and unhealthy.<br><br>We manufacture gasifiers. We test the hell out of them before we ship them<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>in order to ensure each makes the correct amount of producer gas!<br><br>Have a gassy New Year!<br><br>Bill Klein,<br>3i<br><br><br><br><br><br>----- Original Message -----<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>From: "Greg Manning" <<a href="mailto:a31ford@gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:a31ford@gmail.com">a31ford@gmail.com</a>><br>To: "'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification'"<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><<a href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org" ymailto="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 6:31 AM<br>Subject: Re: [Gasification] Syngas on Wiki_<br><br><br><br><br>LMAO Jeff.<br><br>You hit two nails with the same hammer.<br><br> Shells' claim is that it "cleans" (their N2 is in the form of a "recumbent<br>NOx format", that "Boosts" performance to the point of a clean combustion,<br>as per say, like a hot-rodders's "NOX" add-on).<br><br><br> Jim's statement (that you included below) Is yet again a form of<br>deflection, (incorrect of course), Or should I say, Correct.......<br><br><br><br> N2 content is EXACTLY the differentiation between "SYNGAS" and "Producer<br>Gas"<br><br><br><br>Heck,<br><br>There's Town gas, Lime gas, Produced gas, Producer gas, Coal gas, Wood gas,<br>Piped gas, Charcoal gas, Synthesis (Syn) gas, Lamp gas, Heating gas,<br>Municipal gas, Queen's gas, Lamp lighters gas, Crier's gas, and finally,<br>Natural gas.<br><br>And as Bill Kline added, the "new and Improved" "GEK Gas" as a tongue in<br>cheek addition to the already rampant list above.<br><br><br><br>I'm Tired, of people trying to display a "cow" as a cow that is "New and<br>Improved" version (chocolate ?), don't muddy the already bad waters of<br>gasification, with cross-gendered, yuppie-flavored, names of gases that<br>simply ain't so.<br><br><br><br>I hate to say it, but... "It's people like you, that have given<br>gasification the bad name it already has with investors, with your "pie in<br>the sky claims"".<br><br>Jim, run your "Syngas" un-stripped in an FT process, (that works), THEN, I<br>will relinquish the "the moon" to you....(you will deserve it, for your<br>advances in the quantum mechanics of physics).<br><br>Greg Manning,<br>Canadian Gasifier Ltd. (<a href="http://www.cangas.ca">http://www.cangas.ca</a>)<br>Building Hi-Performance Gasifiers, Since 2001<br><br>Brandon, Manitoba, Canada<br>1 (204) 726-1851<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" ymailto="mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>[mailto:<a href="mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" ymailto="mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]On Behalf Of Jeff<br>Davis<br>Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 6:35 PM<br>To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification<br>Subject: Re: [Gasification] Syngas on Wiki_<br><br><br>Dear All,<br><br><br>As a side note; I drive by a gasoline station, maybe Shell, that puffs<br>that they're gasoline has nitrogen added. Interesting...<br><br><br>H. N. Y.,<br><br><br>Jeff<br><br><br>On Tue, 2010-12-28 at 21:07 -0800, jim mason wrote:<br>> percentage nitrogen density isn't really the relevant racetrack to<br>> work out the real issues with this tech.<br><br><br><br><br><br>--<br>________________________________________________<br><br><a href="http://www.puffergas.com/" target="_blank">www.puffergas.com</a><br><br>Sent from any port in the storm via Acer netbook & Ubuntu Remix.<br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Gasification mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:Gasification@bioenergylists.org" ymailto="mailto:Gasification@bioenergylists.org">Gasification@bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenerg">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenerg</a><br><a href="http://ylists.org/" target="_blank">ylists.org</a><br><br>for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/">http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>-----<br>No virus found in this message.<br>Checked by AVG -<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.avg.com/" target="_blank">www.avg.com</a><br>Version: 10.0.1191 / Virus Database: 1435/3347 - Release Date: 12/29/10<br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Gasification mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:Gasification@bioenergylists.org" ymailto="mailto:Gasification@bioenergylists.org">Gasification@bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Gasification mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:Gasification@bioenergylists.org" ymailto="mailto:Gasification@bioenergylists.org">Gasification@bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/</a><br></div></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>Gasification mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:Gasification@bioenergylists.org">Gasification@bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/">http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/</a><br></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>