Helo Kelvin , thanking again for your final conclusive considerations , which make very clear the need to use the word in correct context , which many here Dough ,Greg and Toby correctly pointed out .Now your well concept described well such as in patent with examples to me clear the all the Confusion .All here agree that syngas realy need complex production process as need to make final product quality , but producer gas not so <div>
<br></div><div> Your truely</div><div>Pannirselvam <br><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 1:49 AM, Kevin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Dear Dr. Pannirselvam</font></div>
<blockquote style="border-left:#000000 2px solid;padding-left:5px;padding-right:0px;margin-left:5px;margin-right:0px" dir="ltr"><div class="im">
<div style="font:10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="font:10pt arial;background:#e4e4e4"><b>From:</b>
<a title="pannirbr@gmail.com" href="mailto:pannirbr@gmail.com" target="_blank">Pannirselvam
P.V</a> </div>
<div style="font:10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Discussion of biomass
pyrolysis and gasification</a> </div>
</div><div class="im"><div style="font:10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 29, 2010 2:53
PM</div>
<div style="font:10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Gasification] Syngas on
Wiki_</div>
<div><br></div>
</div><div class="im"><div>Helo KEVIN</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Well done your words making all the points , yet
need refinement at the end with final conclusion.Some
point </div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Is N2 and co2 free need only to be syngas , or
this is pure syngas which Greg do not agree</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Syngas can be any gas , can include producer gas , water gas
.Historically Syngas the latest , process independent as
Tom correctly conclude that syngas is general one
where as the other are more specific </div>
<div> </div>
</div><div><font size="2" face="Arial"># The fundamental issue here is: What is
"Syngas"? If it is "Synthesis Gas" then its composition and method of
manufacture can be anything and any way, as long as the end use is to
synthesize a final product. On the other hand, if "syngas" is "synthetic gas",
then it must have a definite composition that reasonably approximates the gas
which it is attempting to duplicate. </font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"># "Synthesis Gas" can thus have any amount of N2,
CO2, and other dilutants or contaminants, so long as the level of these
extraneous components do not prevent the "synthesis gas" from being used
for synthesizing a final product, or products. Equally, if what is produced is
"synthetic gas", then the same guideline holds.... dilutants and extraneous
materials must be at an adequately low level such that the "syngas" analysis
meets the specifications for the gas that it is intended to
replace. </font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"># Thus, it would appear that what comes out of
the device producing the gas is "producer gas", and its gas analysis and end
use determines if it is reasonable to call it "fuel gas, "engine grade gas",
"synthesis gas", synthetic gas", etc. </font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"># Note that the GEK could indeed produce a range
of such defined gases. For example, it now has been shown as being able to
producde "Engine Grade Gas" (EGG). This is not "Synthesis Gas" that could be
used for FT feed, or "Synthetic gas" of a grade that could replace
natural gas or propane. However, it might very well be able to produce a
"Synthesis Gas" that was suitable for a FT feedstock, if it was blown with
oxygen rather than air, and if water spray, saturated steam, or superheated
steam was added to the oxygen blast to maintain the thermal balance and to
move the reactions to an area where the right ratio of CO and H2 were
generated.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Best wishes,</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Kevin Chisholm</font></div><div><div></div><div class="h5">
<div><br></div>
<div>your truely</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Dr.Pannirselvam.P.V</div>
<div><br></div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 4:17 PM, Kevin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net" target="_blank">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left:#ccc 1px solid;margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div style="font-family:Arial;color:#000000;font-size:10pt" bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div>We seem to be going around in great big circles!!</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Can we first define "Syngas"?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I believe the term refers to "Synthesis Gas", and not "Synthetic
Gas."</div>
<div> </div>
<div>"Synthesis Gas" can be gas of any composition which is used to
synthesize a subsequent product. If "Synthesis Gas" is used as a fuel, it is
not being used to synthesize a product, and is therefore not "Synthesis
Gas", but rather is simply "Fuel Gas."</div>
<div> </div>
<div>"Producer Gas" is any gas produced by a "Gas Producer." GEK's
Larosifiers, and Wellman-Galushas are all "gas producers. A Coke Oven is a
"Gas Producer, producing "Coke Oven Gas." "Water Gas"is another "Producer
Gas" produced by introducing steam to incandescent carbon (charcoal or
coke)</div>
<div> </div>
<div>A "Stratified Downdraft Gasifier" produces "Producer Gas", and if the
feedstock was wood, this "producer gas" would be "Wood Gas." They produce a
gas that is high in tars, and while it is an excellent "Fuel Grade Gas", for
direct burning, it has far too much tar content to be used as an "Engine
Grade Gas." (EGG). Imbert style Gasifiers, when properly configured, as is
the GEK, can produce a wood gas, or a producer gas, that is adequately low
in tar content, such that it can be used for fuel in a burner, or it can be
used as feed to an engine. If the GEK output gas was used for
processing further to yield a different product, then it would be producing
a "synthesis gas", and it would indeed be proper to state that it was
producing "syngas."</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Thats how I see things.... am I missing something?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Kevin Chisholm</div>
<blockquote style="border-left:#000000 2px solid;padding-left:5px;padding-right:0px;margin-left:5px;margin-right:0px" dir="ltr">
<div>
<div style="font:10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="font:10pt arial;background:#e4e4e4"><b>From:</b> <a title="GFWHELL@aol.com" href="mailto:GFWHELL@aol.com" target="_blank">GFWHELL@aol.com</a> </div>
<div style="font:10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org</a> </div>
<div style="font:10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 29, 2010
1:12 PM</div>
<div style="font:10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Gasification] Syngas on
Wiki_</div>
<div><br></div></div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div><font color="#000000" size="2" face="Arial">
<div>I believe we are all ardent admirers of Jim's Gek, the continual
improvements made to the design and automatic control for the production
of clean flammable gas is the objects of our admiration.</div>
<div>However, there are many among us, who believe the term "Syngas"
describes a synthetic version of a naturally occurring organic compound
(methane).which has far more energy content than the production of
a GEK<font style="background-color:transparent" color="#000000" size="2" face="Arial">.</font></div>
<div><font style="background-color:transparent" color="#000000" size="2" face="Arial">If the GEK really produces "Syngas" there are obviously no
improvements to be made to the QUALITY of the gas
produced. The GEK has most certainly
"arrived".</font></div>
<div>If we believe this then we can all pack up and go home. What is the
object of this site if some one has found the Holy Grail which we all
seek.</div>
<div>On the other hand, there are rules for
successfully marketing a product and Jim has not broken any of
these.</div>
<div><font style="background-color:transparent" color="#000000" size="2" face="Arial">He needs to describe his product in the best possible light in
order to fuel the continued research and development he has shared with
us.</font></div>
<div><font style="background-color:transparent" color="#000000" size="2" face="Arial">Syngas is an excellent descriptive word, are we to have a
referendum on its application?</font></div>
<div><font style="background-color:transparent" color="#000000" size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font style="background-color:transparent" color="#000000" size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font style="background-color:transparent" color="#000000" size="2" face="Arial">GF</font></div>
<div>
<blockquote style="border-left:blue 2px solid;padding-left:5px;margin-left:5px">
<div><br></div>
<div>For me synthesis gas should have the capability of being used to
synthesis some product.<br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Toby Seiler
<span dir="ltr"><<a title="mailto:seilertechco@yahoo.com" href="mailto:seilertechco@yahoo.com" target="_blank">seilertechco@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left:#ccc 1px solid;margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">Tom,<br> <br>Jim was right, I'm working on a
machine that is intended to some degree to integrate principles of
making synthesis gas, so I have a vested interest in his use
of terminology used in marketing his product that, I
believe, contributes to a
public misunderstanding. I've asked Jim nice many
times in the past to consider the differences that Doug, Bill
Klein, Greg and many other professionals on this list have
explained to Jim and myself years
ago. <br> <br>GF (and
others) recognize that there is commercial value in marketing the
"syngas" claim in addition to the technical correctness
issue. <br> <br>Unfortunately with a mushrooming
interest in energy issues, many un or under-educated
persons have now become part of our various governments and
making public policy. Continued use of wrong terminology,
now even amongst government officials making policy decisions,
eventually affects enterprise large and small. <br> <br>I'm
impressed by Jim and his crew's ability to appeal to a large audience
of interested, computer literate folks. I wish him
success.<br> <br>I don't want this to be harsh or attacking to
Jim, but feel that continued effort to make alternative energy
progress will require even greater technical distinctions, rather than
blending terms together as "generic" terms. Please help to
clear up our "english" language version of Wiki defining
these gases and their respective machinery.
<br> <br>Have a good new years. <br> <br>Toby
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