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<div><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mark,</FONT></div>
<div>I have attempted to describe a double barreled gas pump consisting of two plastic drums. The principle of operation, is that "WATER" is used as the "PISTONS"</div>
<div>If one drum is full of water and a pump is started in order to empty the drum it will create a vacuum, unless a fluid is admitted to fill the void.</div>
<div>In this case that fluid will be drawn from the out put of a gasifier.which is sucked in, replacing the water which is being pumped out.</div>
<div>The pump is transferring this water into drum "B", which is, by its nature, a piston expelling what ever fluid is within. </div>
<div>Once air has been expelled from drum "B", it is safe to reverse the process,</div>
<div>The return "stroke" will cause compression of the entrained gas in drum"A" and will be drawing gas into drum "B"from the gasifier.</div>
<div>The desired pressure of the entrained gas can be adjusted by a pressure switch stopping the pump(s)</div>
<div>My underground system with its reinforced concrete casing will withstand a reasonable pressure/vacuum.</div>
<div>Bearing in mind that a 10 inch vacuum is likely to ""collapse" an unsupported plastic drum.</div>
<div>With the use of check valves, level switches and low tech ancillaries it is possible to construct a safe gas compressing system. </div>
<div>My reference to the water becoming flammable is an obvious mal description, the water will take on some of the by products of the gas being pumped which will include condensable volatiles such as methanol , ethanol creosote and tars, the disposal of which should be pyrolisis. </div>
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<div style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><FONT color=black size=2 face=arial>GF
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<div style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Mark Ludlow <mark@ludlow.com><br>
To: 'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification' <gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>
Sent: Mon, Jan 31, 2011 9:28 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [Gasification] DIY GtL<br>
<br>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">Usually the flammability of a liquid is measured by something called "flash point", which is determined by the minimum temperature any given liquid must be to sustain combustion at its surface, when in a "closed cup". Water will never burn. Volatiles in the liquid will burn, as in a dessert set aflame by a warmed liqueur.</SPAN></div>
<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">Mark</SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A href="mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</A> [<A href="mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org?">mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Luke Gardner<br>
<B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 31, 2011 6:17 PM<br>
<B>To:</B> Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification<br>
<B>Subject:</B> Re: [Gasification] DIY GtL</SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Gf, </SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">you mentioned ---</SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">This style of "GAS PUMP" could form the "suction system" required for running the gas producer. No doubt the water will become flammable over a period of time. </SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">the second barrel as you described is vented to the atmosphere I assume </SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I'm curiose,</SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">how long does it take for the water to become flamable?</SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">is it's flamability more linked to time or more linked to cycles?</SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">how flamable can it become?</SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">does this ever pose a threat of igniting through the vent?</SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Luke Gardner</SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">----- Original Message ----- </SPAN></div>
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<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A title=gfwhell@aol.com href="mailto:gfwhell@aol.com">GF</A> </SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A title=gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org</A> </SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Monday, January 31, 2011 8:57 AM</SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Re: [Gasification] DIY GtL</SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Compressing flammable gas obviously can be hazardous, however those who are familiar with making the stuff will know the importance of the exclusion of "air" from any such installation.</SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Natural gas distribution, arrives for domestic use here, at about 45 psi.from the city main.and is regulated down to around 11" wg. for burner use. This stuff is fairly nitrogen free being mostly methane and has a higher cal value than the wood gas which is being debated. So 100 mm WG sounds a trifle low <br>
for burner operation unless large pipes and burner jets are contemplated.</SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">There for compressing the gas is the answer.</SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">This can be safely achieved with the use of two (or more) 45 gallon plastic drums planted under ground for convenience, fitted with the required plumbing and a water pump system with pressure switch controls.</SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">The idea is that one barrel is filled with water and is ready to "suck" gas, the water pump transfers the water into the other barrel drawing gas into the void being created as the water level drops..When the water entering the second drum has expelled all of the contained air in the second drum. This oscillating pumping system can begin.</SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">With the use of good quality check valves, sealed float switches and the use of "two pumps" (the requirement for solenoid valves can be alleviated) </SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">This style of "GAS PUMP" could form the "suction system" required for running the gas producer. No doubt the water will become flammable over a period of time. </SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">GF </SPAN></div>
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<div style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Craig Kernan <<A href="mailto:craig@postcollapse.org">craig@postcollapse.org</A>><br>
To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification <<A href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>><br>
Sent: Mon, Jan 31, 2011 9:25 am<br>
Subject: Re: [Gasification] DIY GtL</SPAN></div>
<div id=AOLMsgPart_0_a15ab6af-76a0-4930-aca7-30d396335be1>
<div style="BACKGROUND: white" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">I would also like information <br>
<br>
Craig <br>
<br>
On 1/31/2011 1:44 AM, Li CHEN wrote: <br>
> Hi Rolf, <br>
> <br>
> In China, there are hundreds of villages using fuel gas > station...(gasifier --> producer gas --> pipe line --> end user). <br>
> <br>
> I find some chinese documents about using pipeline to provide producer > gas. <br>
> <br>
> About pipeline part:, it uses: <br>
> <br>
> From gas tank to end user, outside underground pipeline: high-density > polyehytlene (designed life: 50 years). <br>
> <br>
> Inside or outside ground pipeline: steel pipe. <br>
> <br>
> Pressure before end user gas burner: 100mm H2O. <br>
> <br>
> I will send you offlist some figures about the gas storage tank figure. <br>
> <br>
> Li <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Le 30/01/2011 19:39, Rolf Uhle a écrit : <br>
>> Hallo Brian, Doug and list, <br>
>> <br>
>> this looks amazing ! The filtering seems to be very good. <br>
>> <br>
>> You and Doug seem to have experience with stocking producer gas. <br>
>> <br>
>> May I ask you some questions ? <br>
>> <br>
>> We have 5 separate houses/cabins on our land , all of them with solar >> and <br>
>> individual wood and /or almond shell burning fireplaces . <br>
>> All of them are hidronic underfloor systems with hot sanitary water >> tanks . <br>
>> <br>
>> The distances between these houses make a central water heat >> distribution <br>
>> system rather inviable. <br>
>> <br>
>> We are off grid and run electricitywise on solar, wind and micro hydro. <br>
>> There is a backup generator slow speed diesel running on WVO. <br>
>> <br>
>> My idea is to connect all houses to a single gassifier of around 40 >> -50 kW gas <br>
>> output and store a few hours gas in a gasometer and have the gassy >> start and <br>
>> stop and run at close to full output as the gasometer level demands >> so as to <br>
>> give it " an easy life " tarwise. <br>
>> <br>
>> The clean and cool gas could run through ordinary PE pipes to the >> individual <br>
>> houses where it should burn in gas furnaces. <br>
>> <br>
>> A part of it could run the Listeroid genset which already works in >> chp mode. <br>
>> <br>
>> I remember systems like this being built in Switzerland until 30-40 >> years ago <br>
>> for large kitchens and heating boilers in hotels and other remote >> buildings <br>
>> in the mountains. The manufacturer was located in Horgen on Lake Zurich. <br>
>> I would have to dive very deep into my old records to find him... <br>
>> <br>
>> I attended the Germany GEK workshop with Jim last year, but he seems >> to busy <br>
>> to have time to spare for me. It is a pity. <br>
>> <br>
>> Questions: <br>
>> <br>
>> Do you have a gassifier of that range 40 - 50 kW gas, not engine kW ? <br>
>> <br>
>> Do you think that after scrubbing the gas could be "compressed " >> slightly to <br>
>> 300-400 mb and stored in a gasometer ? <br>
>> <br>
>> Has anybody sent producer gas through PE pipes over 150 m ? <br>
>> <br>
>> Where do you expect the real difficulties ? <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> Looking foreward to your answer. <br>
>> <br>
>> Rolf <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> Am Sonntag, 30. Januar 2011 18:06:37 schrieb Brian D Paasch: <br>
>>> On Jan 29, 2011, at 8:10 PM, doug.williams wrote: <br>
>>>> To finger the problem of using industrial scale producer gas, is that <br>
>>>> most large systems are not tar free, and if you need to compress >>>> the gas, <br>
>>>> technical challenges come thick and fast. <br>
>>> Doug, <br>
>>> <br>
>>> Oh goodness yes! We've not been willing to TOUCH the compression >>> challenges <br>
>>> until we got our gas pretty darn clean. I'm cautiously optimistic with <br>
>>> where we are at on that task: <br>
>>> <br>
>>> <A href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNypVoZg3VA" target=_blank>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNypVoZg3VA</A> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> And right now we're planning on three separate compression steps with <br>
>>> additional filters between each step. <br>
>>> <br>
>>> And thanks for the pointer to your archives, I will certainly browse! <br>
>>> <br>
>>> -brian <br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> --------------------------------------- <br>
>>> Indiana Renewables, LLC <br>
>>> 6600 Karyn Drive <br>
>>> Avon, Indiana 46123 <br>
>>> ph: 317-272-7939 <br>
>>> fax: 317-536-5326 <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
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