<html><head></head><body bgcolor='#FFFFFF' style='font-size:12px;background-color:#FFFFFF;font-family:Verdana, Arial, sans-serif;'>Hi Tom, James and Flo,<br/><br/>Thanks for the comments.<br/><br/>The production of substitute natural gas (or synthetic natural gas as we say in Europe) has different advantages compare to other fuels such as hydrogen, methanol, and Fischer Tropsch Diesel:<br/>1. High conversion efficiency (65% from wood to Bio-SNG, or Coal to SNG)<br/>2. Already existing gas distribution infrastructure such as pipelines and,<br/>3. Well-established and efficient end use technologies e.g., CNG cars (mostly Europe), heating, CHP (combined heat and power), power stations or even for you BBQ.<br/>4. Easy and (cost) effective carbon dioxide removal (CCS) as the separation of a highly concentrated CO2-stream is inherent to all SNG-processes<br/>5. In case of biomass, the carbon balance would be even negative.<br/>6. USA, Canada, Germany, China, Australia and other nation have abundant biomass and/ or coal resources. The reserves for the latter will last for more than 150 years. Whereas natural gas is limited to a range of 40–60 years (BP, Statistical Review of World Energy 2008. <www.bp.com>)<br/>7. Taking into account the cost to overcome the effect of “global warming caused by fossil fuels” and to clean the air and to reduce the CO2 concentration, the production of biomass derive SNG is very cheap. But no one calculate the real cost of fossil fuel. So, yes natural gas is too cheap.<br/>8. SNG or BIO-SNG allows us to transport the energy over huge distances. For example Canada has vast amounts of biomass in northern British Columbia and Ontario, but most of the people live close to the US Border. By converting biomass to SNG it can be easily transported to the cities.<br/>9. Gas cleaning: Coal to SNG plant can use Rectisol Scrubbers (cold temperature scrubbing process). Due to smaller size, biomass to SNG plant can not afford this expensive process, thus catalytically hot gas cleaning processes or newly developed techniques must be applied (topic for RESEARCH).<br/> <br/>The PSI in Switzerland also do research in clean combustion of H2, CH4 and gas mixtures, see <a href="http://crl.web.psi.ch/">http://crl.web.psi.ch/</a><br/> <br/>Ps. Flo wie gehts?Hi Tom, James and Flo,<br/><br/>Thanks for the comments.<br/><br/>The production of substitute natural gas (or synthetic natural gas as we say in Europe) has different advantages compare to other fuels such as hydrogen, methanol, and Fischer Tropsch Diesel:<br/>1. High conversion efficiency (65% from wood to Bio-SNG, or Coal to SNG)<br/>2. Already existing gas distribution infrastructure such as pipelines and,<br/>3. Well-established and efficient end use technologies e.g., CNG cars (mostly Europe), heating, CHP (combined heat and power), power stations or even for you BBQ.<br/>4. Easy and (cost) effective carbon dioxide removal (CCS) as the separation of a highly concentrated CO2-stream is inherent to all SNG-processes<br/>5. In case of biomass, the carbon balance would be even negative.<br/>6. USA, Canada, Germany, China, Australia and other nation have abundant biomass and/ or coal resources. The reserves for the latter will last for more than 150 years. Whereas natural gas is limited to a range of 40–60 years (BP, Statistical Review of World Energy 2008. <www.bp.com>)<br/>7. Taking into account the cost to overcome the effect of “global warming caused by fossil fuels” and to clean the air and to reduce the CO2 concentration, the production of biomass derive SNG is very cheap. But no one calculate the real cost of fossil fuel. So, yes natural gas is too cheap.<br/>8. SNG or BIO-SNG allows us to transport the energy over huge distances. For example Canada has vast amounts of biomass in northern British Columbia and Ontario, but most of the people live close to the US Border. By converting biomass to SNG it can be easily transported to the cities.<br/>9. Gas cleaning: Coal to SNG plant can use Rectisol Scrubbers (cold temperature scrubbing process). Due to smaller size, biomass to SNG plant can not afford this expensive process, thus catalytically hot gas cleaning processes or newly developed techniques must be applied (topic for RESEARCH).<br/> <br/>The PSI in Switzerland also do research in clean combustion of H2, CH4 and gas mixtures, see <a href="http://crl.web.psi.ch/">http://crl.web.psi.ch/</a><br/> <br/><br/>Regard, JAN<br/><br/>Ps. Flo wie gehts?<br/><br/>---<br/>Dr. sc. Jan Kopyscinski<br/>Postdoctoral fellow<br/>Department of Chemical and Petroleum Engineering<br/>Schulich School of Engineering<br/>University of Calgary<br/>2500 University Drive NW<br/>Calgary, Alberta, Canada T2N 1N4<br/>Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jan.kopyscinski@ucalgary.ca">jan.kopyscinski@ucalgary.ca</a><br/><br/><br/><br/><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid blue; margin-left: 5px; padding-left:5px; padding-top:5px;"><hr/><b>Von:</b> linvent@aol.com<br/><b>Gesendet:</b> Jun 2, 2011 1:30:35 PM<br/><b>An:</b> gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org<br/><b>Betreff:</b> Re: [Gasification] back to gasification<br/><br/><div style="FONT-FAMILY: arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">With the exception that CO found in producer gas moderates the H2 combustion rate and moves the potential compression ratio way up above CH4 tolerable compression levels. There is also the question of whether taking the producer gas to methane has the economic benefit of doing so when you are then competing with natural gas which in the US is selling for $4/mmBTU.</div><div style="FONT-FAMILY: arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </div><div style="FONT-FAMILY: arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sincerely,</div><div style="FONT-FAMILY: arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Leland T. "Tom" Taylor</div><div style="FONT-FAMILY: arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">President</div><div style="FONT-FAMILY: arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Thermogenics Inc.</div><div> </div><div> </div>-----Original Message-----<br/>From: Jim Leach <jleach@danatech.net><br/>To: 'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification' <gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org><br/>Sent: Wed, Jun 1, 2011 5:35 pm<br/>Subject: Re: [Gasification] back to gasification<div id="AOLMsgPart_2_2f3d09e1-abc3-4ee9-9747-5dd223142e0a"><div align="left"><span class="894492923-01062011"><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">Thanks again Florian,</font></span></div><div align="left"> </div><div align="left"><span class="894492923-01062011"><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">I do have a couple of comments. You still have to cool the product gas down for the gas turbine, not because of the turbine, but because of the gas control valves. They have temperature limits that cannot be exceeded, typically about 60C. Also, there is an energy benefit to methanation for application to engines. The benefit is that converting the H2 to CH4 will allow engines with higher BMEPs to be applied, and that means higher efficiency, and greater output for the same engine frame size.</font></span></div><div align="left"> </div><div align="left"><span class="894492923-01062011"><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">Best Regards,</font></span></div><div> </div><div align="left"><font color="#04c6db" face="Arial"><strong>JAMES T. LEACH, P.E.</strong></font></div><div align="left"><font color="#04c6db" face="Arial" size="2"><strong>President</strong></font></div><div align="left"> </div><div align="left"><font color="#23c2cf" face="Arial"><strong><em>DANA TECHNOLOGIES, INC.</em></strong></font></div><div align="left"><font color="#23c2cf" face="Arial" size="2"><strong><em>32242 Paseo Adelanto, Suite D</em></strong></font></div><div align="left"><font color="#23c2cf" face="Arial" size="2"><strong><em>San Juan Capistrano, CA 92675</em></strong></font></div><div align="left"><font color="#23c2cf" face="Arial" size="2"><strong><em>Ph 949-496-6516</em></strong></font></div><div align="left"><font color="#23c2cf" face="Arial" size="2"><strong><em>Fx 949-496-8133</em></strong></font></div><div align="left"><font color="#23c2cf" face="Arial" size="2"><strong><em>Mobile 949-933-6518</em></strong></font></div><div> </div><br/><div align="left" class="OutlookMessageHeader"><hr/><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a> [<a href="mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org?">mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Florian Nagel<br/><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 01, 2011 4:07 PM<br/><b>To:</b> 'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification'<br/><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Gasification] back to gasification</font><br/> </div><div> </div><div class="WordSection1"><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Hi James</span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Regarding gas engines, you are right that cooling is a must from a thermodynamical perspective. Regarding gas turbines, a hot gas cleaning process would be very nice to have (excuse me mentioning gas turbines in the last sentence of the last comment…clearly doesn’t belong there…) because the turbines have the potential to stand high combustion temperatures. The according exhaust gas would be in turn very hot, which makes the use of this heat possible in a bottoming cycle. So, looking at a gasturbine combined cycle, high fuel gas temperature does make sense if you adjust the combustion temperature in a way that the gas turbine stands it and if you use the exhaust heat. However, this requires a hot gas cleaning process. At PSI, we operated high-temperature fuel cell with producer gas that was cleaned in a hot gas cleaning system where the gas temperature never dropped below 500C. Thus, there are ways to remove tars, etc. at high temperature (Catalytic partial oxidation or high-temperature reforming steps). Anyways, I wouldn’t go so far and say that this technology is readily available ;o)</span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">In any case, methanation is a great way to convert woody biomass into a more usable and storable form but I don’t quite see it in combination with gas engines. Just to expensive and without real efficiency benefit if you aim at electricity as end product.</span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Cheers</span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Florian</span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </span></div><div><div style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><div class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <a href="mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a> [<a href="mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org?">mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jim Leach<br/><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 01, 2011 17:18<br/><b>To:</b> 'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification'<br/><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Gasification] back to gasification</span></div></div></div><div class="MsoNormal"> </div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Thanks Florian,</span></div><div class="MsoNormal"> </div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">If one wants to burn the product gas in an engine or a gas turbine you have to cool and clean the gas anyway. So dropping the temperature would be a part of the tar removal process and would occur anyway. Adding water is not good because the product gas must be well below the dew point for the combustion device. So it you put it in for methanation, you will have to take it out later. But what I was interested in was simply converting the H2 to CH4, because engines (including GT's) don't really like H2 (it burns too fast). Reciprocating engines in particular, would much prefer a steady diet of CH4. But I think I understand from your answer is that it is not worth it. Unfortunately, an answer I was expecting.</span></div><div><div class="MsoNormal"> </div></div><div class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #04c6db">JAMES T. LEACH, P.E.</span></strong></div><div class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #04c6db; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">President</span></strong></div><div class="MsoNormal"> </div><div class="MsoNormal"><em><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #23c2cf">DANA TECHNOLOGIES, INC.</span></b></em></div><div class="MsoNormal"><em><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #23c2cf; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">32242 Paseo Adelanto, Suite D</span></b></em></div><div class="MsoNormal"><em><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #23c2cf; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">San Juan Capistrano, CA 92675</span></b></em></div><div class="MsoNormal"><em><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #23c2cf; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Ph 949-496-6516</span></b></em></div><div class="MsoNormal"><em><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #23c2cf; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Fx 949-496-8133</span></b></em></div><div class="MsoNormal"><em><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #23c2cf; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Mobile 949-933-6518</span></b></em></div><div><div class="MsoNormal"> </div></div><div class="MsoNormal"> </div><div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><hr align="center" size="3" width="100%"/></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <a href="mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a> [<a href="mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org?">mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Florian Nagel<br/><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 01, 2011 2:52 PM<br/><b>To:</b> 'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification'<br/><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Gasification] back to gasification</span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Hi James</span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I cant comment on the cost of the methanation step but I can comment on your idea regarding a methanation step as fuel upgrade in a gasification- and gas engine-based power plant. I did my thesis together with Jan at PSI working on the combination of high-temperature fuel cells with woody biomass gasifiers: <a href="http://e-collection.library.ethz.ch/view/eth:41553">http://e-collection.library.ethz.ch/view/eth:41553</a> . Hi Jan, I m still on that list as you see :D</span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Methanation is an exothermic process that yields the highest methane concentration in the product gas when kept around 400C process temperature. Hence, you ll first have to cool your syngas down to 400C. Depending on your gasifier type and syngas composition, you might get into carbon deposition problems (Boudouard reaction for example where 2 CO molecules decompose into carbon and carbon dioxide). You can overcome these problems by injecting steam into your syngas (which will cool it down at the same time..) which you will also need to increase your hydrogen atom content in a way that allows methanation. Then you can take it from there and produce methane.</span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Problem I see is that by introducing water into your fuel gas, you already lower its heating value. This results in a lower combustion temperature in your gas engine. Gas engines are limited by the Carnot efficiency rule that clearly states that the efficiency of a combustion engine increases with the difference between the temperature of the hot compressed combusted gas and the temperature of the expanded exhaust gas. Hence, the efficiency of a combustion engine running on humidized syngas should definitely be lower than running on unhumidified syngas. Next problem is, during the methanation you have to cool the reactor. Thus you are again reducing the energy content of your syngas or by that time synthetic methane (relative to the energy content of the initial feedstock). The energy you extract from the methanation process is in form of low-temperature heat (400C) which you can hardly use economically to produce electricity with a steam cycle. Once you have your synthetic methane gas mixture, you ll have to reduce the high water content of it to not run into above mentioned efficiency issues of the combustion engine. This can only be done by cooling the gas close to ambient temperature were the water simply condenses. Another point in the process were you extract energy at very very low temperature level. I would consider this energy as a complete loss. From there you can use the dried, cold synthetic methane in your engine and produce electricity.</span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">To put it in numbers: Good gasification-gas engine plants reach efficiencies around 25 to 30% without bottoming-cycle (steam cycle to use exhaust heat). The methanation process has an efficiency around 65%. Together with a very high combustion engine efficiency of 42.5%, you end up with a maximum efficiency of a gasification-methanation-gas engine scheme of around 27.5%. However, with considerably higher equipment cost. I definitely recommend not to use a methanation step as fuel upgrading step but to use the syngas directly in your engine. In any case, the world totally changes if you aim at using high-temperature fuel cells, gas turbines or if you want to make the wood energy transportable and storable. The latter was the idea of the PSI methanation project given Switzerlands dependence on foreign gas imports.</span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Cheers</span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Florian </span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </span></div><div><div style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><div class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <a href="mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a> [<a href="mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org?">mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jim Leach<br/><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 01, 2011 15:51<br/><b>To:</b> 'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification'<br/><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Gasification] back to gasification</span></div></div></div><div class="MsoNormal"> </div><div class="MsoNormal"><span class="arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">Jan,</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span class="arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">I am curious what method you selected for tar removal. Also, was the methanation step expensive? The methane would make a better engine fuel than the H2 and CO but I am concerned about the cost.</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span class="arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">Best Regards,</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> </span></div><div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> </span></div></div><div class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #04c6db; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">JAMES T. LEACH, P.E.</span></strong></div><div class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #04c6db; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">President</span></strong></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><em><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #23c2cf; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">DANA TECHNOLOGIES, INC.</span></b></em></div><div class="MsoNormal"><em><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #23c2cf; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">32242 Paseo Adelanto, Suite D</span></b></em></div><div class="MsoNormal"><em><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #23c2cf; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">San Juan Capistrano, CA 92675</span></b></em></div><div class="MsoNormal"><em><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #23c2cf; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Ph 949-496-6516</span></b></em></div><div class="MsoNormal"><em><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #23c2cf; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Fx 949-496-8133</span></b></em></div><div class="MsoNormal"><em><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #23c2cf; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Mobile 949-933-6518</span></b></em></div><div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> </span></div></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> </span></div><div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><hr align="center" size="3" width="100%"/></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <a href="mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a> [<a href="mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org?">mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jan Kopyscinski<br/><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 01, 2011 1:13 PM<br/><b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification<br/><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Gasification] back to gasification</span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Hi Kevin,<br/><br/>I did my Phd thesis on this topic. You can find more information there:<br/><a href="http://e-collection.library.ethz.ch/view/eth:1059">http://e-collection.library.ethz.ch/view/eth:1059</a><br/><br/>or under <a href="http://www.bio-sng.com/">www.bio-sng.com</a> and <a href="http://www.biosng.com/">www.biosng.com</a>, <a href="http://www.biofuelstp.eu/bio-sng.html">http://www.biofuelstp.eu/bio-sng.html</a> and on other pages.<br/><br/>In a nut shell the process consits of:<br/>1) low temperature steam gasification<br/>2) gas cleaning (ash, tar, H2S, ...)<br/>3) methanation = conversion of the syngas into methan (catalytic process, mostly Nickelcatalyst)<br/> CO + 3 H2 --> CH4 + H2O<br/> CO + H2O --> H2 + CO2<br/><br/>If you use a different catalyst you can go for higher hydrocarbon such as Fischer Tropsch Diesel, or Methanol, ....<br/><br/>4) Fuel upgrading = removal of H2O, CO2<br/><br/>We at the Paul Scherrer Institute in Switzerland (<a href="http://tpe.web.psi.ch/">http://tpe.web.psi.ch/</a>) investigated this process from wood to BioSNG in two scales for more than 1000h.<br/><br/>Regards<br/><br/>Jan</span></div><pre>- </pre><pre>Dr. sc. Jan Kopyscinski</pre><pre>Postdoctoral fellow</pre><pre>Department of Chemical and Petroleum Engineering</pre><pre>Schulich School of Engineering</pre><pre>University of Calgary</pre><pre>2500 University Drive NW</pre><pre>Calgary, Alberta, Canada T2N 1N4</pre><pre> </pre><pre>Email: <a href="mailto:jan.kopyscinski@ucalgary.ca">jan.kopyscinski@ucalgary.ca</a></pre><pre>Phone: 001 403 2109575 </pre><div class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><br/><br/> </div><div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><hr align="center" size="3" width="100%"/></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Von:</span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> Kevin <<a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>><br/><b>Gesendet:</b> May 31, 2011 5:02:24 PM<br/><b>An:</b> "Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification" <<a href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br/><b>Betreff:</b> Re: [Gasification] back to gasification</span></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dear Jan</span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> </span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Very interesting!!</span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> </span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">What steam temperature and pressure is required to gasify wood?</span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> </span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Once one has such gas, what sort processing is required to convert it to CH4? (That is, what temperatures, pressures, catalysts, etc)</span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> </span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Is there any way this can be done on a small scale?</span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> </span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Is there any way this process can be modified to produce methanol on a small scale? If so, this would be awesome... it would then yield a very portable liquid fuel.</span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> </span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Thanks!</span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> </span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Kevin</span></div></div><blockquote style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in"><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">----- Original Message -----</span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <a href="mailto:jan.kopy@web.de" title="jan.kopy@web.de">Jan Kopyscinski</a></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To:</span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <a href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org" title="gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification</a></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sent:</span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Tuesday, May 31, 2011 11:30 AM</span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Subject:</span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Re: [Gasification] back to gasification</span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> </span></div></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; BACKGROUND: white"><br/><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Hi,<br/><br/>First of all, there are at least two different types of biofuel:<br/>First Generation: agricultural feedstock, which is converted by means of biochemical processes (i.e., digestion) --> Biogas<br/>Second Generation: woody biomass that is converted via thermochemical converiosn into a producer or so-calles syngas (Gasification).<br/>Thus, if your goal is to produce Methan or Natural Gas substite for a gas engine or transportation fuel you have different options. But you need to know what is your feedstock (dry , wet, digestable or not digestable such as wood):<br/>If you have a rather dry feedstock you can go for steam gasifiaction (no air, means no Nitrogen). The produced syngas you can catalytilcally convert to CH4, CO2 and H2O. Prior to the methanation process you need to remove the sulphur since it is deactivating your catalyts. H2O and CO2 can then be removed. This process has been investiaget by the Paul Scherrer Institiute in Switzerland (<a href="http://www.psi.ch/">www.psi.ch</a> and <a href="http://www.bio-sng.com/">www.bio-sng.com</a>).<br/>Removal of nitrogen is too expensive, thus you should avoid feeding it into your process. 2 vol% to max 5vol% N2 in the methan rich gas is acceptable.<br/><br/>Regards,<br/><br/>Jan</span></div><div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center; BACKGROUND: white"><hr align="center" size="3" width="100%"/></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Von:</span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> "Pannirselvam P.V" <<a href="mailto:pannirbr@gmail.com">pannirbr@gmail.com</a>><br/><b>Gesendet:</b> May 31, 2011 12:46:54 PM<br/><b>An:</b> "Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification" <<a href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br/><b>Betreff:</b> Re: [Gasification] back to gasification<br/><br/>Dear A.D Karve </span></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> </span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> One of the project we have been studying is based on the IGT,Instuite Gas technology patented process called Biotherm , in which the wood gas or syngqs can be passed into the biodigestor, in which CO and Hydrogen can be converted into methane ; the NOX .COX, SOX removed via simple known wet or dry process using activated charcoal and lime ; the methane is then compressed.The N can be removed as ammonia,as this can be very toxic to bio methane bacteria; Syngas obtained via pyrogas can reduce this N2 problem and complexity.Thus pyrogas technology has more potential than wood gas technology</span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> </span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> we are studying how to make this complex process into simple innovative process to make possible charcoal and methane economy which is practiced in the developed country in big scale can be made possible in developing village level technology too in small scale ,The project is yet in design stage to reduce CO2 to use as liquid fertilizer too increasing the calorific valued the compressed biogas.</span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> </span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Yours truely</span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Pannirselvam</span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> </span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> </span></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 11:01 PM, Anand Karve <<a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">adkarve@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Dear List,<br/>We are already using, in India, wood gas made from agricultural waste<br/>to run stationary internal combustion engines. But, for using it as<br/>automobile fuel, it would have to be filled into cylinders, for which<br/>the nitrogen in the wood gas would have to be removed in order to<br/>reduce its bulk and to increase its calorfiic value. Does anybody have<br/>a suggestion as to how this can be achieved?<br/>Yours<br/>A.D.Karve<br/><br/>_______________________________________________<br/>Gasification mailing list<br/><br/>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br/><a href="mailto:Gasification@bioenergylists.org">Gasification@bioenergylists.org</a><br/><br/>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br/><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br/><br/>for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site:<br/><a href="http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/">http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/</a></span></div></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><br/><br clear="all"/><br/><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">--<br/>************************************************<br/>P.V.PANNIRSELVAM<br/>ASSOCIATE . 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MARGIN: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, Sans-Serif; COLOR: #000; FONT-SIZE: 12px"><pre style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><tt>_______________________________________________ Gasification mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address <a href="mailto:Gasification@bioenergylists.org">Gasification@bioenergylists.org</a> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org</a> for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site: <a href="http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/">http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/</a> </tt>
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