<font color='black' size='2' face='arial'>
<div>There appears to be a market for the "ASH AL 0" Aluminum Oxide sells for more than the scrap value of AL.</div>
<div>It also makes excellent refectories.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>GF<br>
<br>
</div>
<div style="CLEAR: both"></div>
<br>
<br>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Kevin <kchisholm@ca.inter.net><br>
To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification <gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>
Sent: Tue, Jul 12, 2011 11:39 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [Gasification] CONSERVATION OF ENERGY<br>
<br>
<div id=AOLMsgPart_2_d069111c-37fd-4281-8b55-5d054ee2fa62>
<div><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Dear Tom</FONT></div>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" dir=ltr>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=tombreed2010@gmail.com href="mailto:tombreed2010@gmail.com">Thomas Reed</A> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification</A> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, July 12, 2011 11:16 PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Gasification] CONSERVATION OF ENERGY</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Kevin and All</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>> Great job on calculating various energy source costs. Care to put it in a table?</div>
<div> </div>
<div><FONT size=2 face=Arial>It is difficult to put in a Table, in that Outlook Express doesn't easily permit making Tables. However, teh results below can be presented as follows:</FONT></div>
<div><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </div>
<div> </div>
<div><FONT size=2 face=Arial><STRONG>Material Energy Content, kw-hr/lb $/Lb Cost of Energy Cost of Energy, $/kw-hr</STRONG></FONT></div>
<div><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Aluminum 3.3 $1.00 $.30</FONT></div>
<div><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Wood Pellets 2.5 $ .125 $.05</FONT></div>
<FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" dir=ltr>
<div><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT><br>
</div>
<div>> On my website, www. <A href="http://woodgas.com/" target=_blank>Woodgas.com</A>, I have a section called Energy Rosetta Stone at</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<FONT size=2 face=Arial>> </FONT><A href="http://www.woodgas.com/energyrosetta.htm" target=_blank>http://www.woodgas.com/energyrosetta.htm</A>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>> I believe it is an interactive table. It would be interesting to check your new numbers against mine...</div>
<div> </div>
<div><FONT size=2 face=Arial>This is a very helpful table, and gives a good perspective on the cost of energy and power from different sources. There is minor disagreement between my figures and yours, in that for wood pellets, with about 5% moisture, the heat value per ton is about 17 million BTU per short ton of 2,000 pounds. There can be large variations in heating value of biomass, simply as a consequence of moisture content, and your Spreadsheet allows insertion of a more accurate heating value, if one is known.</FONT></div>
<div><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </div>
<div><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Best wishes,</FONT></div>
<div><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </div>
<div><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Tom Reed<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<br>
Dr Thomas B Reed
<div>President, The Biomass Energy Foundation</div>
<div><A href="http://www.woodgas.com/" target=_blank>www.Woodgas.com</A></div>
</div>
<div><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT><br>
On Jul 12, 2011, at 10:03 PM, "Kevin" <<A href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</A>> wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<div></div>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<div>
<div><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Dear Tom</FONT></div>
<div><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </div>
<div><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Thanks very much for the specific real numbers for the energy available from a pound of Aluminum.</FONT></div>
<div><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </div>
<div><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Assuming that scrap Aluminum sells for $1 per pound, then the cost of the energy in the Hydrogen produced is thus $1/3.3 = $.30 per kw-hr, assuming 100% conversion to Hydrogen. </FONT></div>
<div><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </div>
<div><FONT size=2 face=Arial>In comparison, purchased wood pellets cost about $5 per 40 pound bag, or $.125 per pound, and each pound of pellets contains about 8,500 BTU, or about 2.5 kw-hr per pound. In this case, the cost of contained energy is about $.125/2.5 = $.05 per kw-hr, ie, about 1/6 as much.</FONT></div>
<div><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </div>
<div><FONT size=2 face=Arial>As I understand it, the best practical efficiency of a Fuel Cell running on Hydrogen is about 60%; this would cost of energy for electricity of about $.30/.6 = $.50 per kw-hr.</FONT></div>
<div><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </div>
<div><FONT size=2 face=Arial>A biomass gasifier has a typical efficiency of about 70%, giving a cost of the gas energy of about $.05/.7 = $.071 per kw-hr. If this gas is sent to an internal combustion engine with an efficiency of 25%, shaft power thus costs about $.284 per kw-hr; if the shaft was connected to a generator with 80% efficiency, then the energy cost of power from high cost wood pellets would be about $.284/.8 = $.357 per kw-hr.</FONT></div>
<div><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </div>
<div><FONT size=2 face=Arial>There was a discussion about an "Earth Battery" using Aluminum as the energy source. Would you have any idea of the conversion efficiency of Aluminum to Electricity in such an "Earth Cell?" More particularly, would the efficiency of such an "Earth Cell" be lower than, approximately equal to, or higher than, a Fuel cell?</FONT></div>
<div><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </div>
<div><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Thanks, and Best wishes,</FONT></div>
<div><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </div>
<div><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></div>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" dir=ltr>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=tombreed2010@gmail.com href="mailto:tombreed2010@gmail.com">Thomas Reed</A> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification</A> ; <A title=phoenix98604@msn.com href="mailto:phoenix98604@msn.com">Art Krenzel</A> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=Gasification@bioenergylists.org href="mailto:Gasification@bioenergylists.org">Gasification@bioenergylists.org</A> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, July 12, 2011 9:52 PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Gasification] CONSERVATION OF ENERGY</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>PS. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>According to my book, THE FREE ENERGY OF BINARY COMPOUNDS (available at <A href="http://woodgas.com/" target=_blank>Woodgas.com</A>)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The Enthalpy of combustion of Al </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Al + 3/2 O2 ==> 1/2 Al2O3. Delta H (C) = 178 kcal/mole = 745 kJ/mole. The MW of Al is 27, so this is 27.6 kJ/g or 12,527 kJ/ lb. 1 kW hr is 3.8 MJ, so this is 3.3 kW hr/lb. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Well worth capturing.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Tom Reed</div>
<div><br>
Dr Thomas B Reed
<div>President, The Biomass Energy Foundation</div>
<div><A href="http://www.woodgas.com/" target=_blank>www.Woodgas.com</A></div>
</div>
<div><br>
On Jul 12, 2011, at 7:51 PM, GF <<A href="mailto:gfwhell@aol.com">gfwhell@aol.com</A>> wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<div></div>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<div><FONT color=black size=2 face=arial>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<div id=AOLMsgPart_1_ec7eb326-b5c9-4d13-8d49-1ff6abd4eb36><FONT color=black size=2 face=arial>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<div id=AOLMsgPart_1_d8a7d03b-426b-4064-8f1f-7f57443426a4><FONT color=black size=2 face=arial><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"></FONT><br>
<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3>The other day I posted an article on this site concerning:</FONT></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Cornish Hydrogen Generator. Keelynet, <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>which describes a method of converting</FONT></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3>Aluminum into its oxide and in the process cracks water, freeing up hydrogen for use as fuel for a light car.</FONT></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3>By all accounts, using this gas in the place of any other fuel.</FONT></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3>Distances and the amount of metal used in this attainment were mentioned.</FONT></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3>I was hoping for a reaction from one of the many “Energy Economists”</FONT></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3>Who lurk on this site, to respond with negative information regarding the impracticality and waste fullness of such a process?</FONT></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3>I believe there is a large following on this site who are interested in obtaining electrical power using renewable energy, derived from carbon neutral sources.</FONT></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3>They might question the economics and ethics of using a refined ore as fuel.</FONT></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3>Instead of chopping down oxygen producing vegetation. <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3>In this respect I am a nonconformist. I believe most Aluminum is produced by Hydro electric power and, so the CO2 is not in the equation.</FONT></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3>My second comment is harnessing a “free” supply of high temperature heat which is emitted from most Ice’s in the form of “Hot Exhaust”.</FONT></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3>This is the place to install a reactor capable of converting beer cans into hydrogen as not too much energy would be needed to complete the reaction. Bubbling super heated steam through a molten bath of AL would give pure hydrogen.</FONT></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3>No tar, and the ash is a hot commodity</FONT></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3></FONT></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3>The real question is: how much energy is locked up in a pound of AL</FONT></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3></FONT></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3>gfwhell</FONT></div>
<br>
<div style="CLEAR: both"></div>
</FONT></div>
</div>
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