Dear Jim , Dr A.D.Karve<div><br></div><div>Dear Jim and ADK</div><div><br></div><div> we have been working to to do what AD K idealised projects.</div><div><br></div><div> Jim is correct , theer are real problem with h2 and co storage.Even after diution of both of this dangerous gas from syngas to producer gas of lower quality with N2 , the compressibilty problem is yet there , even small quantity of compressed h2 is explosives .</div>
<div><br></div><div>the best way to solve this problem is via slow pyrolysis.The pyrolysis gas can be quenched , the tiem controled and can be used.</div><div><br></div><div>the best pyrolyis process from Austraulia is sucess ful one m comercial scae inwhic</div>
<div>producer gas from pyrolysed charcaol is burnt very neat and clean to do pyrolysis.</div><div><br>Jim has operated GEk in pyrolysis mode too.</div><div><br></div><div> I am sure biogas methane can make better Hbio oil , gas thus helping combined pyrolysis and trireforming of c02 recyclibg with catalyst.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Idealy getting bio oil , pyrogas and charcoal as biomass refinary as ADK product demand can push this project into reality.Where there is an need , an apportunity, there innovative tecnology deveopment become possible.</div>
<div><br></div><div>se heer more information about syngas production nusing c02,methane reforming</div><div><br></div>
<div><a href="https://plus.google.com/u/0/114788987753123175730/posts/esRBsYVGN7n">https://plus.google.com/u/0/114788987753123175730/posts/esRBsYVGN7n</a></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>truly</div><div>Pannirselvam P.V</div>
<div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 12:25 AM, Anand Karve <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com" target="_blank">adkarve@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Dear Jim,<br>
from your message it appears that it is not possible to lower the<br>
temperature of gasification if we wanted to produce producer gas in an<br>
oven-and-retort system. We developed, at the end of the last century,<br>
an oven-and-retort process for producing charcoal from agricultural<br>
waste. At that time, a researcher from the National Chemical<br>
Laboratory, Pune, India, tested some catalysts in our oven-and-retort<br>
system to show that one could produce active charcoal even at the<br>
relatively low temperature of 300 to 400 C. This led me to thinking<br>
that one may discover a catalyst which might help us in getting<br>
producer gas from agricultural waste at this temperature. Some<br>
preliminary experiments were conducted by us with the help of a<br>
pyrolyzer being used for producing fuel oil from plastics. The same<br>
proprietory catalyst was used in this process, which was being used in<br>
the plastic to fuel oil process. We obtained a fair quantity of<br>
combustible gas, which we could collect over water, like biogas. We<br>
burned it in a biogas stove. The success of these experiments lead me<br>
to think that it might be feasible to produce producer gas in an<br>
oven-and-retort system.<br>
Yours<br>
A.D.Karve<br>
<div><div></div><div><br>
On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 2:25 PM, jim mason <<a href="mailto:jim@allpowerlabs.org" target="_blank">jim@allpowerlabs.org</a>> wrote:<br>
> On Sun, Sep 11, 2011 at 8:08 PM, Anand Karve <<a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com" target="_blank">adkarve@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> Dear Henri,<br>
>> yes it is too complicated. I give below my basic reason for using this process.<br>
>> India generates<br>
><br>
>> When we heat the biomass in a closed vessel, can we add a catalyst to<br>
>> the biomass so that the producer gas is generated at a lower<br>
>> temperature? In this way, we would require much less material for<br>
>> burning outside the reactor vessel. If anybody has already done this<br>
>> kind of work, is the catalyst known? Once we get producer gas without<br>
>> nitrogen, we can look at filling it into cylinders and supplying it to<br>
>> rural people as high grade fuel for using in internal combustion<br>
>> engines.<br>
><br>
><br>
> a.d.<br>
><br>
> it would be wonderful to have a conversion route like this. sadly i<br>
> think the thermo-chemistry is against us here. but you should prove<br>
> us wrong ;-)<br>
><br>
> however even if solved, the result would still be marginally able to<br>
> be compressed economically in low tech situations. think of the<br>
> difficulty in even ch4 compression for fuel volumes. now, 2-3x that<br>
> difficulty with pure h2 and co? (btw, what is the actual energy<br>
> density difference here?)<br>
><br>
><br>
> here's some challenges for the "magic retort" that i see.<br>
><br>
> first, you have both a volatile gas/liquid and char conversion<br>
> problem. pyrolysis is going to give you both. yes, we can easily<br>
> complete pyrolysis at 300c or so with common ic exhaust heat exchange,<br>
> or other relatively low grade heats. don't need catalysts to do this.<br>
><br>
> by well controlling the temp, and having lots of time, you can make<br>
> the tars less nasty to deal with later. however, they will still be<br>
> tars needing cracking and/or combustion and reduction. we usually use<br>
> the rule of thumb of 1000c to crack them. if you keep their<br>
> generation to only primary tars via low temp pyrolysis, it will take<br>
> somewhat less temp to do this conversion. how much less i don't have<br>
> good numbers on yet. wish i did.<br>
><br>
> however, it is very unlikely that could get down to 300c. most of the<br>
> catalytic tar cracking assists i've read about are in the 700c and up<br>
> range. mostly really 900c and up. here's a page from reed's handbook<br>
> that give results for some common routes, including dolomite:<br>
> <a href="http://wiki.gekgasifier.com/w/page/6123685/Catayltic%20Tar%20Cracking%20Methods" target="_blank">http://wiki.gekgasifier.com/w/page/6123685/Catayltic%20Tar%20Cracking%20Methods</a><br>
> (thank you tom)<br>
><br>
> it is also known that putting dolomite in the biomass during pyrolysis<br>
> will make the tars produced a bit more benign and more easy to deal<br>
> with downstream. this is a method used in pyrolysis to oil situations<br>
> where control of the liquid / gas output is desired. its still a<br>
> mess, but a bit less so. under highly controlled lab conditions,<br>
> everyone gets excited. DOE soon writes big checks. tragedy usually<br>
> follows.<br>
><br>
> assuming you do somehow solve the tar cracking problem at low temp,<br>
> either through pyrolysis control or tar cracking, now you have to get<br>
> rid of the char. well, you can just agree to use that for biochar too<br>
> of course. but if you want that to be fuel you need to get up into<br>
> temps where reduction happens at useful rates.<br>
><br>
> in a typical reactor situation the usable bottom end temp for<br>
> reduction ends around 650-700c. it is usually much higher with<br>
> smaller reduction volume reactors. in our units we're usually still<br>
> 800c at the bottom of reduction. this is non-ideal, as you are<br>
> wasting reduction potential. however you are gaining fines purging<br>
> out the bell, which is needed to prevent bell packing.<br>
><br>
> as you approach infinite reduction times you can get reduction down<br>
> into the 500c range. that is where it stops chemically under atm<br>
> conditions. you can use vacuum to assist reduction, but that is hard<br>
> to gain under temp. though with batch load the reducing temps will<br>
> reduce volume and increase vacuum which will help drive more<br>
> reduction.<br>
><br>
> here's the gas equilibrium charts that reveal some of this.<br>
> <a href="http://wiki.gekgasifier.com/w/page/6123723/Gas%20Equilibrium%20Charts" target="_blank">http://wiki.gekgasifier.com/w/page/6123723/Gas%20Equilibrium%20Charts</a><br>
><br>
> i don't know of any catalysts that alter reduction temp curves. there<br>
> must some. i'd be very interested to know too.<br>
><br>
> but really, you are trying to do this all in one step in a barrel, so<br>
> separating them like the above isn't fully helpful. what you are<br>
> describing here is really a pyrolysis retort, not a gasifier. it is a<br>
> magic retort that goes "biomass to gas" in a manner that many have<br>
> wanted a magic retort that goes "biomass to oil". the gas in this<br>
> case being the controlled output, not the oil. relatively high temps<br>
> are needed to increase the gas fraction vs liquid fraction, and you do<br>
> this at the cost of them going progressively nasty and difficult to<br>
> post process. this also works against the original desire for low<br>
> temps.<br>
><br>
> so there's some problems. you knew all this. not sure that helped<br>
> any. unfortunately, i don't have this magic catalyst in my<br>
> possession. if you find it, please do send me a can!<br>
><br>
><br>
> jim<br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Gasification mailing list<br>
><br>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
> <a href="mailto:Gasification@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Gasification@bioenergylists.org</a><br>
><br>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
><br>
> for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site:<br>
> <a href="http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div></div><div>--<br>
***<br>
Dr. A.D. Karve<br>
Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
</div><div><div></div><div>Gasification mailing list<br>
<br>
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
<a href="mailto:Gasification@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Gasification@bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
<a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site:<br>
<a href="http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br>************************************************<br>P.V.PANNIRSELVAM<br>ASSOCIATE . PROF.<br>Research Group ,GPEC, Coordinator <br>Computer aided Cost engineering<br>
<br>DEQ – Departamento de Engenharia Química<br>CT – Centro de Tecnologia / UFRN, Lagoa Nova – Natal/RN<br>Campus Universitário. CEP: 59.072-970<br>North East,Brazil<br>*******************************************<br><a href="https://sites.google.com/a/biomassa.eq.ufrn.br/sites/" target="_blank">https://sites.google.com/a/biomassa.eq.ufrn.br/sites/</a><br>
and <br><a href="http://ecosyseng.wetpaint.com/" target="_blank">http://ecosyseng.wetpaint.com/</a><br><br><br>Fone ;Office<br><a href="tel:84%203215-3769" value="+558432153769" target="_blank">84 3215-3769</a> , Ramal 210<br>
Home : <a href="tel:84%203217-1557" value="+558432171557" target="_blank">84 3217-1557</a><br><br>Mobile :<a href="tel:558488145083" value="+558488145083" target="_blank">558488145083</a><br><br>Email:<br><a href="mailto:pvpa@msn.com" target="_blank">pvpa@msn.com</a><br>
<a href="mailto:panruti2002@yahoo.com" target="_blank">panruti2002@yahoo.com</a><br><a href="mailto:pannirbr@gmail.com" target="_blank">pannirbr@gmail.com</a><br><a href="mailto:pvpa@msn.com" target="_blank">pvpa@msn.com</a><br>
<br><br><br>
</div>