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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>“</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>The steam produced in cavitation is like putting water in a bell jar and pulling a vacuum. If there is enough vacuum the water will boil, converting it's temperature into energy for the phase change. Eventually you end up with a chunk of ice in the bell jar.”<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Not so! Not enough latent heat is lost. Sensible heat must be removed also. In outer space, where there are huge radiative heat losses this applies. If folks could make ice with simple vacuum pumps, who would mess with refrigeration? It takes energy to evaporate water, not just vacuum.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Plus, when a gas is adsorbed onto a sieve, energy is released. It takes the same energy (and then some) to regenerate the sieves. No free lunch; no where.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>sabbadess@aol.com<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, March 18, 2012 7:55 AM<br><b>To:</b> gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Gasification] On the subject of H2 and O (was N2 removal)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Hi Greg,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Sure. Let's to a simple example so my feeble mind can follow it. When I drop cold chips in my gasifier there is some moisture content in the chips...this is liquid water in the wood cells. As the chips burn down into the hearth they get hot and the water changes to steam. This phase change absorbs some amount of energy. Then as the steam goes through the char, some of it does the water gas shift if there is enough heat. This absorbs even more energy. The remaining steam ends up as condensate in the cooler. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>The steam produced in cavitation is like putting water in a bell jar and pulling a vacuum. If there is enough vacuum the water will boil, converting it's temperature into energy for the phase change. Eventually you end up with a chunk of ice in the bell jar.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>The water gas shift will not happen in the phase change because there isn't sufficient activation energy availble to make the reaction go. If it did work that way, there would be hydrogen bubbles coming off boat propellers. That would make a COOL rooster tail!<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Gasifiers do not run a low enough pressure to vaporize the water, like the bell jar. I can get the numbers if you want, but you need to be in -13psi range. That's way more than we pull.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Any clearer or still muddy??<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Stephen<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Greg Manning <<a href="mailto:a31ford@gmail.com">a31ford@gmail.com</a>><br>To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification <<a href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>Sent: Sun, Mar 18, 2012 10:09 am<br>Subject: Re: [Gasification] On the subject of H2 and O (was N2 removal)<o:p></o:p></span></p><div id="AOLMsgPart_0_51286a8d-d0a9-4fd1-a87d-9812a376804a"><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>Hi Stephen, thanks for the reply.<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>OK, I somewhat understand you, BUT, wouldn't water be doing a phase<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>change in the core of a gasifier as well ?<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>What I was getting at, is if steam is produced in cavitation in cold<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>water, then wouldn't the shift effect also happen within the core<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>during phase transition (from water as a liquid, to water as a vapor,<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>when heated by the core) within the same boundaries of effect as water<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>to steam in the trailing edge of a propeller ? (all of these<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>situations involve lower that normal pressure zones).<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>Aren't contrails produced in water vapor on the wing tips of an<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>airplane because of this same pressure drop phase shift, causing a<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>dew-point change?<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>The core of most gasifiers runs in a dynamic lower than atmospheric<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>pressure ( a very low internal barometric pressure) (suction based<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>units), so the same shifts should apply during phase transition,<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>shouldn't they ?<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>I understand that a pressure fed gasifier would behave differently<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>(and I've personally observed this) than a suction based one, I'm<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>speaking about suction based gasifiers.<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>Somewhat lost,<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>Greg<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 8:26 AM, <<a href="mailto:sabbadess@aol.com">sabbadess@aol.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> Greg,<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>><o:p> </o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> The energy doesn't change. The bond energy in the water is constant<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> regardless of pressure.<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>><o:p> </o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> The cavitation issue is different. It is a phase change phenomenon, not a<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> chemical change one.<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>><o:p> </o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> Stephen<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> From: Greg Manning <<a href="mailto:a31ford@gmail.com">a31ford@gmail.com</a>><o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> <<a href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> Sent: Sun, Mar 18, 2012 9:02 am<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> Subject: [Gasification] On the subject of H2 and O (was N2 removal)<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>><o:p> </o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> Greetings List.<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> Since we are speaking input air, I thought I might ask a somewhat<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> related question.<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> Water gas shift. I know there are many that have talked about this,<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> and I understand the basics.<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> However, here is the question.<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> At what negative pressure ( negative in/wc) does the shift move down<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> the temperature scale, to the point of being within the 1000 - 1200 c<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> area ?<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> We all know that propeller cavitation produces steam in water that is<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> 10 c (or there abouts), I have to assume (not being a chemist) that<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> the same negative pressure effect would also apply to other principals<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> when dealing with water.<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> --<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> Greg Manning,<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> Brandon, Manitoba, Canada<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> _______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> Gasification mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> <a href="mailto:Gasification@bioenergylists.org">Gasification@bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site:<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> <a href="http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/</a><o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>><o:p> </o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>><o:p> </o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> _______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> Gasification mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>><o:p> </o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> <a href="mailto:Gasification@bioenergylists.org">Gasification@bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>><o:p> </o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>><o:p> </o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site:<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>> <a href="http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/</a><o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>><o:p> </o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>-- <o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'> Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>Greg Manning,<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>Brandon, Manitoba, Canada<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>Gasification mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'><a href="mailto:Gasification@bioenergylists.org">Gasification@bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site:<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'><a href="http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/</a><o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre></div></div></div></body></html>