Hi <br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 9:28 AM, Thomas Koch <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:tk@tke.dk" target="_blank">tk@tke.dk</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
In this discussion about biocoal - or torrefied wood it is very important to know why you are doing it.<br>
<br></blockquote><div> very important objective questions , any product or process design need to have very clear objective design goal </div><div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
I can only agree that you can heat wood to 200 oC using 10-12 % of hi as heat - some mec hanical energy and have a challenge with the "tars" that has evaporated.<br>
<br>
But - what have you obtained? apart from 20 % of the energy is lost and you have a tarry waste water mess to handle?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div> There are good pyrolysis design where this energy can be minimized good bio oil , low quality gas but can be good to use is possible</div>
<div><br></div><div> <b>GEK pyrolysis is one such good examples , where these energy lost in the steam , combustion gases need to be made possible.Thus integrated enegy generation has been not considered in remote places </b></div>
<div> </div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
The only reason that could justify torrefication - MAYBE - is if you want to feed the wood into an entrained flow reactor and needs particles of 100-200 my. To get a char/wood quality where that is possible<br></blockquote>
<div> </div><div><br></div><div> <b>Thomas , can you give me how many entrained flow reactor are working , as milling need energy , then suspending in the bed need energy ,Is it really viable in small , medium and big scale projects.</b></div>
<div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
You need to heat to 280-300 oC - and then you lose 30-40 % of the energy content plus some mechanical energy~ that sums up to that you have only 50 % of the original energy left to sell.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div> Very important point is the energy balance , too much burning for too little , thus even no more benefits for environments </div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
With the focus of protection renewable carbon it will never be acceptable!<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div> <b> This also need good CO2 balance , too much burning loss of enegy you bring here , make me understand your pont very well made in this context</b></div>
<div><br></div><div> <b>There are many positive points as described well by others including Prof Dr.Tom Reeds </b></div><div><b> There is an need to make possible this technology some biomass energy integration too in remote area , this simple hydrolysis can make possible big scale centralized power plant where big mega city are there .</b></div>
<div> </div><div> T<b>homas , i guess there are several 20 plants made in Europe and may be the same amount in USA as an alternate fuel to centralized power plant as they always consumed charcoal , thus destroyed more than 50 percent of the forest, after this yet import charcoal , now very cheap biocoal .Here equipment manufacture play key roles here .This was very well explained in earlier post by TOM Miles , who are behind and push this technology innovation .But if there is no stakeholders to make it sustainable it may not survive</b></div>
<div><br></div><div> Thomas , you have made correct questions in correct contexts , made correct answer too , thus I can happily agree with your views </div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Thomas Koch<br>
-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----<br>
Fra: <a href="mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>] På vegne af Thomas Reed<br>
Sendt: 19. juli 2012 13:39<br>
Til: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification<br>
Cc: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification<br>
Emne: Re: [Gasification] BIOCOAL - THE WOOD FUEL OF THE FUTURE<br>
<br>
Tom Koch and all<br>
<br>
I believe BIOCOAL can be made from dry wood with less than 20% energy loss. It only requires the energy to raise the dry wood from 100-300C. Taking wood heat capacity as<br>
<br>
1.26 kJ/kg-deg<br>
<br>
the energy to heat from 20-300C would be (280x1.26) 350 kJ/kg. (There could be other exotheric or endothermic energy terms, but his should be the right magnitude.)<br>
<br>
(1 kJ ~ 1 Btu.)<br>
<br>
so the energy cost of BIOCOAL is small compared to the 8000 Btu of heat released on burning.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Thomas B Reed<br>
<br>
<br>
On Jul 17, 2012, at 1:11 AM, Thomas Koch <<a href="mailto:tk@tke.dk">tk@tke.dk</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> But it will cost 50 % of the heating value of the wood<br>
><br>
> -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----<br>
> Fra: <a href="mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
> [mailto:<a href="mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>] På vegne af<br>
> <a href="mailto:linvent@aol.com">linvent@aol.com</a><br>
> Sendt: 16. juli 2012 20:15<br>
> Til: <a href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>; <a href="mailto:mark@ludlow.com">mark@ludlow.com</a>;<br>
> <a href="mailto:mantal@hawaii.edu">mantal@hawaii.edu</a>; <a href="mailto:artsolar@aol.com">artsolar@aol.com</a>; <a href="mailto:rwalt@gocpc.com">rwalt@gocpc.com</a><br>
> Emne: Re: [Gasification] BIOCOAL - THE WOOD FUEL OF THE FUTURE<br>
><br>
> There is a company formed to make torrified wood. I am terrified of the prospects as it would be a lot easier to gasify wood at the site of coal use.<br>
><br>
> Sincerely,<br>
> Leland T. "Tom" Taylor<br>
> Thermogenics Inc.<br>
><br>
><br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: Tombreed <<a href="mailto:tombreed2010@gmail.com">tombreed2010@gmail.com</a>><br>
> To: mark <<a href="mailto:mark@ludlow.com">mark@ludlow.com</a>>; Michael Antal <<a href="mailto:mantal@hawaii.edu">mantal@hawaii.edu</a>>; Art<br>
> Lilley <<a href="mailto:artsolar@aol.com">artsolar@aol.com</a>>; Robb Walt <<a href="mailto:rwalt@gocpc.com">rwalt@gocpc.com</a>><br>
> Cc: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification<br>
> <<a href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
> Sent: Mon, Jul 16, 2012 7:25 am<br>
> Subject: [Gasification] BIOCOAL - THE WOOD FUEL OF THE FUTURE<br>
><br>
> Dear Mark, Greg and all<br>
><br>
><br>
> Thanks for your good wishes, and I am now mobile with a walker. Lots of time to pursue thermoplastics, pyrolysis and BIOCOAL.<br>
><br>
><br>
> <><><><br>
><br>
><br>
> BIOCOAL (290-310C) is a very specific product of WOOD TORREFACTION<br>
> (200-310C) which may become the ideal end product for wood fuel in the<br>
> future.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Heating wood to 300C drives off all water and some excess H2O and CO2,<br>
> giving an increase of energy content from ~ 8000 to 10,000 Btu/lb, a<br>
> friable product easily reduced to face powder particle size for<br>
> coal-like combustion, pelletization use, and conferring a waterproof<br>
> nature. The emitted gases are combustible, and more than adequate to<br>
> provide the process heat for roasting, crushing and briquetting. It is<br>
> superior to coal In lacking suffer and high ash.<br>
><br>
><br>
> I wish I was younger and richer. I believe I would jump into Biocoal<br>
> with both feet. Conventional COAL is such an ideal fuel in many ways,<br>
> and Biocoal fixes the problem areas of sulfur and ash.<br>
><br>
><br>
> <><><><br>
><br>
><br>
> Before my fall I was planning to convert a 55 gal drum of wood scrap<br>
> into BIOCOAL. I hope someone will try this.<br>
><br>
><br>
> At idle the exhaust of a car or truck is about 700C at several ATM<br>
> pressure. Two taps, before and after the muffler should make it<br>
> possible to withdraw a 300C stream of gas through the barrel of wood<br>
> and heat the wood to BIOCOAL without allowing overheating.<br>
><br>
><br>
> By heating with a 300C gas, one prevents the exothermic continuing of<br>
> the wood to charcoal at 400 C.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Looking forward to a BIOCOAL future,<br>
><br>
><br>
> Tom Reed<br>
><br>
> Thomas B Reed<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On Jul 15, 2012, at 2:59 PM, Greg Manning &<a href="mailto:lt%3Ba31ford@gmail.com">lt;a31ford@gmail.com</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Greetings Tom, (and list)<br>
><br>
> Tom, It's great to hear that the fall was not really bad, even though<br>
> still an inconvenence though.<br>
><br>
><br>
> I have one question/answer I would like to pose, and that is....<br>
><br>
><br>
> Every pelletized product I've gasified, all have done the same thing,<br>
> they expand in heat/moisture of the hearth.<br>
><br>
><br>
> One solution I've come up with (even though it lowers the total<br>
> output of the gasifier) is using parasitic power to run a torification<br>
> process, instead of a partial combustion process.<br>
><br>
><br>
> All in all, when one looks to both methods of gas evolution, the later<br>
> is a cleaner method (torification). With the losses of available mass<br>
> for gas, when partial combustion is applied, the parasitic power<br>
> difference, in torification is much less, (because of more mass being<br>
> torified, instead of combusted).<br>
><br>
><br>
> Torification is a much easier method of controlling the hearth's<br>
> internal temperature, IMO, and handles pelleted products much better,<br>
> as it gets the moisture level to a level that does not expand the<br>
> pellets as much (air moisture ??).<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Greg Manning<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Tombreed<br>
> &<a href="mailto:lt%3Btombreed2010@gmail.com">lt;tombreed2010@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> Dear Mark and all<br>
><br>
><br>
> Thanks so much for your warming words, twice as warming, here in the<br>
> Fairview Recovery unit of the Worcester Memorial Hospital system. I<br>
> fell down 13 stairs, bound to be unlucky, BUT no permanent damage!<br>
> I'm recuperating in my daugher's guest suite, dreaming about a Fall cruise!<br>
> <><><><br>
> Here's a puzzle for all to chew on. "Gasification" of wood implies<br>
> the complete conversion of both the cellulose (80%) and lignin (20%)<br>
> components. The tars from the lignin are basically aromatic due to<br>
> the aromatic structure of lignin, and may be the principle component<br>
> of the smoke and tar.<br>
><br>
><br>
> The primary fuel is then the cellulose smoke, various volatiles that<br>
> burn cleanly, leaving no solids.<br>
> My expert Friend, Mike Antal, Coral Prof. At the University of Hawaii,<br>
> could give chapter and verse on the nature of the volatiles from<br>
> burning celluloses.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Paper and high cellulose paper products could be a much cleaner<br>
> biomass fuel and are easily pelletized. Wood pellets have become a<br>
> major fuel source in the past decade. Is it possible that paper<br>
> pellets could be even more important and cleaner and cheaper?<br>
><br>
><br>
> Best wishes to all of you from Tom Reed, back from a bad fall.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Tom Reed<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Thomas B Reed<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On Jul 12, 2012, at 3:42 AM, "Mark Ludlow" <a> wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Dear Dr. Reed, You are a mainstay and inspiration to us all. How<br>
> frustrating it must have been to feel yourself fall! There’s really no<br>
> reason why the Universe chose you. It certainly was not Karma. I know<br>
> you must feel miserable. But I hope that you know that many people love<br>
> and admire you and are probably wishing, as I wish, that they could<br>
> have taken that fall for you. Best wishes,Mark<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
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