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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Thank Nils,<br>
It sounds like an opposite result to that of Ontario, Canada where
the Feed-in Tariff has put all the marginal CO2 policy emphasis
on stimulation in the electricity sector. <br>
Perhaps Denmark isn't cold enough to care:)<br>
Alex<br>
<br>
<br>
On 30/07/2012 2:35 AM, EP Engineering wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">Alex,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">The rational is simple and very Danish. A wide
natural gas network was constructed in the 80’ties. In order
for the system to be paid back it was mandatory to take
natural gas in all areas with the gas network. Local
communities should enforce this – but they didn’t. Deficit
rose. Consequently a high tax was put on oil, which was
reflected on gas becoming attractive. We talked of a “shadow
tax” on natural gas. Today the gas network has still deficit
– but is recovering. The “nice” tax comes in handy and has
been partly directed into environmental taxes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">Utilities do not pay the tax. Hence electricity
prices from power producers (large and small) are rather low
and related to the free Nordpool market – until delivered to
the consumer. A rather big tax is laid on the electricity
consumption and this is supplemented by grid transport costs
and “Public Service Obligations” (PSO) = TAX.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">Only heavy process industry has a straight
scheme. They pay a little tax on the fuel going to the
processes regardless of the process being electricity or
process heat. The “funny” thing is, what happens to their
surplus energy after the processes. The low temperature heat
could be wisely used in district heating schemes but this is
prohibited by the large energy tax going on the surplus
heat. Hence the energy is wasted!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">You now have a “clear” view of the distorting
mechanisms. A very simple way of dealing with it, would be
to rely only on tax on the fuel – both for heating and
electric purposes – a tax that should only reflect
environmental matters. This tax needs to be the same all
over Europe – otherwise the system will not work. Sounds
easy?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"
lang="EN-US">Med venlig hilsen/Best regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"
lang="EN-US">Nils Peter Astrupgaard<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
name="Nils_Peter_Astrupgaard"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><img
id="_x0000_i1025"
src="cid:part1.09080405.04010808@kingston.net"
height="150" width="250"></span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Alex English<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 30. juli 2012 00:25<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and
gasification<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Spam] Re: [Gasification] Potential
Gasification Winner?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thomas,<br>
Thanks for the explanation. Is it felt that the taxes on
energy there are unevenly or unreasonably applied? What
would be the rational for NG prices to be so proportionally
high?<br>
Is this not significantly different than all the rest of the
EU? <br>
<br>
Historical price patterns have changed here too with NG
costing a small fraction of heating oil (and of your NG).
Two societies here; the piped and the un-piped. <br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Alex<br>
<br>
On 29/07/2012 1:45 PM, Thomas Koch wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Alex</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">You are right – my explanatiion is not very
clear. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">In Denmark the electricity price that a
producer can sell at varies between 4 and 10 €c/kWh – most
of the time – 5-7 €c/kWh. On top of that is a green
premium to guaranteed price. For gasifiers it is 10 €c/kWh
– 74,5 øre/kWh - as far as I remember. The comsumer pays
aprox 30 €c/kWh.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">If you use natural gas you pay approx. 1,2
€/m3 ~ 11-12 €c/kWh + plus cost of gas furnace. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">In this market where a gasifier can sell
electricity for 100 €/MWh and heat at 70-80-90 €/MWh (due
to the losses in the transmission grid there are no money
to pay the extra investment from a biomass boiler to a
biomass gasifier. If you also take in account that the
char losses on tha gasifier can be 4-10 times higher than
for a boiler you end up at a loss.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">This calculations can be different for
different locations – eg. in Italy there has been
extremely high green premiums (250-300 €/MWh) for a
period. But it does not really help if the technology
developers does not trust the Italian politicians.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">Did that help you? </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">Best regards</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">Thomas</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">Fra:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]
<b>På vegne af </b>Alex English<br>
<b>Sendt:</b> 29. juli 2012 19:21<br>
<b>Til:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<b>Emne:</b> Re: [Gasification] Potential Gasification
Winner?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thomas,<br>
I don't understand your comment.<br>
Could you describe how the price of heat and electricity
have changed to make "heat more expensive than
electricity".<br>
Thanks,<br>
Alex English<br>
<br>
On 29/07/2012 8:23 AM, Thomas Koch wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">But - now heat is more expensive than
electricity – and the cost level we have reached is 2-10
times the market price. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">And of course none of the plants are no
where near a commercial product (apart from one that is
close to – but 2-4 times too expensive) because the
investors are looking for projects that have a chance of
being competitive with in 2-10 years. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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