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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=318583222-05112012><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>Dear Robert, Tom , and other knowledgeable
people</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=318583222-05112012><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=318583222-05112012><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>Your responses to the Swedish trash importing and energy
production business raise two particular issues that I believe need to
be responded to separately, and I invite comments on both. These
are</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=318583222-05112012><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>- technological adequacy</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=318583222-05112012><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>- economic viability</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=318583222-05112012><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=318583222-05112012><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>On the first, an internet search delivers a range of quite low
tech to ultra-high tech solutions to delivering Energy-from-Waste, each
claiming to be the solution to the challenge - few seem to have large commercial
scale plants operating on biomass such as forest waste/ MSW/ or similar. How do
you select the sheep from the goats?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=318583222-05112012><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=318583222-05112012><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>On the second, it seems to me that economic viability can only
be assessed on the basis of local issues and constraints together with
the CapEx and OpEx aspects of the technology selected plus likely energy outputs
and usage efficiencies. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=318583222-05112012><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=318583222-05112012><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>Of these cost of feedstock, haulage costs to plant, local
environmental constraints, local taxes, local incentives, etc - all these
can be accurately determined at the proposed E-f-W site but how do you get
<U>reliable</U> CapEx/ OpEx and energy outputs?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=318583222-05112012><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=318583222-05112012><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>I am investigating potential replacement of a major portion of
coal and natural gas usage for steam/heat generation in a food processing
operation with MSW amd maybe some forest waste. Gasification and co-firing of
the boilers is being proposed. Technologically, does this seem "sensible" with
presently available plant? Does it really need high-end
technology?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=318583222-05112012><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=318583222-05112012><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>Kind regards</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=318583222-05112012><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=318583222-05112012><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>John Pearce</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=318583222-05112012><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=318583222-05112012><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>Manildra Group</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=318583222-05112012><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>Australia</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=318583222-05112012><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><!-- Converted from text/rtf format --><FONT size=2
face=Arial></FONT>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT><BR><BR></DIV>
<P><FONT size=2><B><I><SPAN lang=en-au><FONT face=Arial>Dr R. John
Pearce</FONT></SPAN></I></B><I><SPAN lang=en-au></SPAN></I><SPAN
lang=en-au></SPAN> <BR><SPAN lang=en-au><I><FONT face=Arial>R&D
Manager</FONT></I></SPAN> <BR><SPAN lang=en-au><I><FONT face=Arial>Manildra
Group</FONT></I></SPAN> <BR><SPAN lang=en-au><I><FONT face=Arial>Phone:
61.2.4423.8259</FONT></I></SPAN> <BR><SPAN lang=en-au><I><FONT
face=Arial>Fax: 61.2.4423.8258</FONT></I></SPAN>
<BR><SPAN lang=en-au><I><FONT face=Arial>Mobile:
61.4.1291.9000</FONT></I></SPAN> </FONT></P>
<DIV> </DIV><BR>
<DIV dir=ltr lang=en-us class=OutlookMessageHeader align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><B>From:</B> Gasification
[mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>linvent@aol.com<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, 6 November 2012 4:29
AM<BR><B>To:</B> gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[Gasification] Sweden's trash project<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV><FONT color=black size=2 face=arial>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"></FONT>Dear Robert,</DIV>
<DIV> Los Angeles hauls it's green waste to east of
Phoenix and dumps it. Getting a permit for an outhouse in the South Coast Air
Quality Management District (Los Angeles area to San Bernadino and south) is
virtually impossible. We had spent $300,000 on a waste to ethanol project
(cellulosic ethanol) in the Cabezon Indian tribal land area only to find out
there were no air credits available and the tribe adhered to the SCAQMD
standards although they didn't have to. </DIV>
<DIV> Several groups have tried to do gasifiers in cities
and have run into permitting, zoning, NIMBY issues and given up. In other
instances, Occidental Chemical build a 200 tpd plant near San Diego, ran it for
8 hours and scrapped it after spending huge sums on it. With the failures of
many attempts at gasification, in particular MSW, the investment world is very
leery of getting involved. </DIV>
<DIV> One group I have been working with spent 5 years
working on a PPA (not in this country) and it was issued in September. </DIV>
<DIV> In areas where there are mandated renewable energy
portfolio mandates where the utility has to supplement with renewable energy
purchases, you may not be able to get a Power Purchase Agreement as they don't
need to issue one if they are mandated to buy one, or they will not give you
renewable energy premium pricing as they can buy credits cheaply and the DoD has
used this to keep their renewable energy pricing down, at least one branch of
the DoD claims this. </DIV>
<DIV> It is a very complicated and in many cases, stupid
process. As an example, if distributed systems were in the Los Angeles area, the
truck traffic would be greatly reduced, reducing the emissions from truck
traffic, but this doesn't matter in the emissions
counting. <BR> With natural gas pricing low, it is
creeping into the power costs even in the East Coast and will shelve many
renewable energy projects. <BR></DIV>
<DIV style="CLEAR: both"><FONT class=Apple-style-span
face=arial>Sincerely,</FONT><BR>
<DIV><FONT class=Apple-style-span face="'Comic Sans MS', sans-serif">Leland T.
"Tom" Taylor</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT class=Apple-style-span
face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thermogenics
Inc. </FONT></DIV></DIV><BR><BR>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: Robert Gersch <Robert@rkgenterprises.com><BR>To:
Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
<gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org><BR>Sent: Mon, Nov 5, 2012 10:12
am<BR>Subject: Re: [Gasification] Sweden's trash project<BR><BR>
<DIV id=AOLMsgPart_2_6b592ac4-8a44-498a-8b74-97818ad4ec4b>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Tom,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Thanks for the input. The NPR story makes us
sound like idiots for not having similar programs in the US. Somehow, I
had assumed that only with tax incentives, could such a program be viable.
I am probably the most ignorant member of the group, but I have wondered why
each city in the US doesn't install a gasifier plant to deal with the waste
brush. For the ignorant, it would seem viable and reduce some of what we
bury. Waste wood from homebuilding, old concrete forms, old fences,
Christmas trees, old pallets and all the trees that are knocked down for
new construction plus the trees that are trimmed equate to a lot of BTU's.
I am in San Antonio and we at lease make mulch from so of the waste wood.I
assume most other US cities do at least that.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Thanks</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Robert Gersch</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=linvent@aol.com href="mailto:linvent@aol.com">linvent@aol.com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, November 05, 2012 10:57
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Gasification] Sweden's
trash project</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT color=black size=2 face=arial><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"></FONT>There are quite a few waste
incinerators in Europe. Italy has sent it's trash by train to Germany to be
incinerated. There are some gasifiers there also. One Norwegian firm has an
incinerator design that doesn't produce dioxins above regulatory limits, but
all are very expensive, one 300 tpd gasifier system is valued at $300mm. Some
of the existing incinerators do not meet emissions levels, but the government
has not shut them down as there is no option otherwise. EU capital and sale of
electricity pricing is heavily subsidized by the government and does not
compete in other parts of the world. One group had 4 dual stage
"gasifier" but actually combustor systems in Europe, all have been
shut down for emissions reasons, lack of continuing subsidies, expense of
operation and the only remaining one operating that I know of is in Japan.
<BR><BR>
<DIV style="CLEAR: both"><FONT class=Apple-style-span
face=arial>Sincerely,</FONT><BR>
<DIV><FONT class=Apple-style-span face="'Comic Sans MS', sans-serif">Leland T.
"Tom" Taylor</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT class=Apple-style-span
face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thermogenics
Inc. </FONT></DIV></DIV><BR><BR>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: Robert Gersch <<A
href="mailto:Robert@rkgenterprises.com">Robert@rkgenterprises.com</A>><BR>To:
'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification' <<A
href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>><BR>Sent:
Mon, Nov 5, 2012 9:47 am<BR>Subject: [Gasification] Sweden's trash
project<BR><BR>
<DIV id=AOLMsgPart_2_1fe999d4-a6a2-4f84-be31-af03a5fddb0d>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Below is a link to a NPR story on Sweden's
conversion of trash to energy. There is no mention of the method
used. Does anyone know if this is gasification? If you read the
article, other countries are paying Sweden to take their trash and Sweden
produces energy from it. Is there a chance that this could actually be
cost effective?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial><A
href="http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/10/28/163823839/sweden-wants-your-trash?ft=3&f=111787346&sc=nl&cc=es-20121104"
target=_blank>http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/10/28/163823839/sweden-wants-your-trash?ft=3&f=111787346&sc=nl&cc=es-20121104</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Thanks</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff; MARGIN: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, Sans-Serif; COLOR: #000; FONT-SIZE: 12px"
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