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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Stuart</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Basically, a "Gasifier + IC engine" is cheaper than a
"Boiler + Turbine (or steam engine)".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Turbines must have superheated steam, to enable maximum
expansion of the steam, without having droplet condensation that can be a
serious cause of turbine blade erosion. erosion in a steam engine is not a
problem, even with saturated steam. However, the steam engine efficiency with
low pressure saturated steam is dreadful. Higher pressures and superheat would
considerably improve the efficiency of steam engines. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Then there is the safety hazard associated with steam.
Safety is not a problem with competent operators, but competent operators are
expensive to hire. Additionally, there are many Government regulations connected
to steam boilers and their operation, because of many fatalities in the past, as
a result of poor boiler design or inadequately qualified Operators.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>With woodgas, there are indeed safety hazards, but they
are much smaller than with steam. The main safety hazard with wood gas is the
poisonous CO, but with appropriate system design and ventilation, this
hazard is small. Additionally, if there is a serious failure with woodgas, it
will not be as dramatic and physically devastating as would be a steam boiler
explosion. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>So.... it is worth the bother, especially for smaller
installations, to go with woodgas rather than steam boilers, and to take extra
steps to clean it adequately.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Best wishes,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></DIV>
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style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=kneebraceboy@yahoo.com.au
href="mailto:kneebraceboy@yahoo.com.au">stuart mather</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=kneebraceboy@yahoo.com.au
href="mailto:kneebraceboy@yahoo.com.au">stuart mather</A> ; <A
title=gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass
pyrolysis and gasification</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 31, 2013 11:07
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Gasification]
mycoremediation of tarry water</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: #000; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<DIV><SPAN>Ok, steam turbines under 250 hp aren't efficient and a turbine
needs super heated steam. But a reciprocating steam engine is efficient and
doesn't need superheated steam, so aren't these better than trying to deal
with tar in an internal combustion engine?</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 13px"><SPAN>Stuart.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
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style="FONT-FAMILY: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
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<HR SIZE=1>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> stuart mather <<A
href="mailto:kneebraceboy@yahoo.com.au">kneebraceboy@yahoo.com.au</A>><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and
gasification <<A
href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>>
<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday, 1 February
2013 12:21 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[Gasification] mycoremediation of tarry water<BR></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV id=yiv46203392>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<DIV><SPAN>I'm just curious why syngas is ever deliberately burnt in an
internal combustion engine in a deliberate setup when surely it would
completely sidestep the tar/acids corrosion/disposal issue if the heat was
just used to power a steam turbine driven generator? Sorry if it's a daft
question.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 13px"><SPAN>Stuart.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 13px"><SPAN><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial>
<HR SIZE=1>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Robert Fairchild
<solarbobky@yahoo.com><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and
gasification <gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org> <BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday, 1 February 2013 11:40
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[Gasification] mycoremediation of tarry water<BR></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV id=yiv46203392>
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0>
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<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>This might be a job for mushrooms. Really. Filter the
water through straw or woodchips then innoculate with the appropriate
fungus. It's known as mycoremediation. Paul Stamets is the
expert.<BR>See:<BR>http://www.realitysandwich.com/mycoremediation_and_oil_spills<BR>http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/research/reports/fullreports/464.1.pdf<BR> Bob<BR><BR>---
On <B>Thu, 1/31/13, linvent@aol.com <I><linvent@aol.com></I></B>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From:
linvent@aol.com <linvent@aol.com><BR>Subject: Re: [Gasification]
Gasification Digest, Vol 29, Issue 7: scrubber water<BR>To:
gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org<BR>Date: Thursday, January 31,
2013, 8:15 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=yiv46203392><FONT color=black size=2 face=arial>And some of
the gasifiers in India simply dump it in ponds. One very well funded
group set up large tanks ala biodigesters, that didn't work. This is
the same group that spent $200 mm on an Australian MSW to power
gasifier that was scrapped. It is not acceptable to dump the
produced water in any normal waste water treatment system. Even in
"clean" gasifier gas the moisture content going to the engine will
bring organic acids and other compounds that will reduce the lifetime
and the power output of the engine. There are effective water
treatment systems available, and after years of trying a variety of
options, we have landed on ones that work well and are relatively
inexpensive to construct and operate. If you look at the cost of a
coal gasifier water treatment plant, it is a significant
investment.<BR><BR>
<DIV style="CLEAR: both"><FONT class=yiv46203392Apple-style-span
face=arial>Sincerely,</FONT><BR>
<DIV><FONT class=yiv46203392Apple-style-span
face="'Comic Sans MS', sans-serif">Leland T. "Tom" Taylor</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT class=yiv46203392Apple-style-span
face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thermogenics
Inc. </FONT></DIV></DIV><BR><BR>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: helvetica, arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: David Coote <dccoote@mira.net><BR>To:
gasification <gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org><BR>Sent:
Thu, Jan 31, 2013 5:38 pm<BR>Subject: Re: [Gasification] Gasification
Digest, Vol 29, Issue 7: scrubber water<BR><BR>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); MARGIN: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 12px"
id=yiv46203392AOLMsgPart_0_3c4c1624-fb30-4bb5-a340-978e5ecb267d><PRE style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><TT>How were they handling the scrubber water, Tom? A colleague visited a
reasonable size gasifier in Europe where the water was stored in a tank.
Once this tank was full their immediate option was to install another
tank. Not ideal!
Waste disposal is becoming increasingly expensive in Australia. This
would increase the cost of the power.
Regards
David
On 1/02/2013 7:00 AM, <A href="" rel=nofollow>gasification-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</A> wrote:
> ------------------------------ Message: 20 Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013
> 09:32:11 -0800 From: "Tom Miles" <<A href="" rel=nofollow>tmiles@trmiles.com</A>> To: "'Discussion
> of biomass pyrolysis and gasification'"
> <<A href="" rel=nofollow>gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>> Subject: Re: [Gasification]
> Power Pallet Message-ID: <00f201cdffd8$e7c8ae80$b75a0b80$@trmiles.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>> >yes, but remember that all that run these fuels to date are doing so by
>>
> tolerating a dirty gas non tar solving reactor, and fighting the tar problem
> in the filtering. on the low tech end this is nearly always a water
> scrubbing system, which really just>moves the toxic problem somewhere else,
> and actual real world running is highly unattractive. yes, it will work for
> the demo, but the ongoing issues with the bongwater cofferdam challenges
> health, regulatory and general pleasurable>concerns.
>
> Not so fast. You can't write off "tar making" gasifiers completely. While
> your observation may be true for hundreds of low cost gasifiers now in use,
> in the last five years I have seen three small scale gas cleaning systems
> using wet scrubbers that would pass California air quality and safety
> regulations. One is produced commercially and was demonstrated at the 300
> kWe scale. Another was demonstrated at 300 KWe and used on a 1 MWe system.
> One was demonstrated on a 100 kWe downdraft gasifier generating 100 kWe from
> grass seed screenings. I know of another two in development for the 40 kWe
> scale. (I also know of at least one that has failed miserably.)
>
> Tar making gasifiers may be a solution for some very difficult but abundant
> fuel like rice husks and agricultural residues if the tars can be managed
> and destroyed acceptably.
>
> Tom
>
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