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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Craig</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=craig@postcollapse.org href="mailto:craig@postcollapse.org">Craig
Kernan</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 03, 2013 2:32
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Gasification]
mycoremediation of tarry water</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>Some possibly naieve questions a bit outside the
box::</DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial># Sometimes, seemingly naieve
questions can be profoundly complex. :-)</FONT><BR><BR>I assume we are
considering mostly the cleanup of filters and equipment.</DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial># No... in the first instance, the
problem is to get the "tar aerosols" out of the gas. A high percentage of them
stay suspended in the water for a period of time, but over a period of
time, some can settle out, or stick to container sidewalls. Others coat
the inside of the gas/water contacting system and build up. Tars falling
out of a water solution are not soluble, (or are of very limited solubility)
in water. </FONT><BR><BR>Can the chemical energy in these
compounds be used in another process? </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial># It can always be burned, but
with difficulty. Perhaps the simplest alternative is to scrape it off the
equipment, and then recycle back to the gasifier, as a small percentage of the
gasifier feed.</FONT><BR><BR>Is water the only solvent that can be
used? (e.g. vegatable oil? .... )</DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial># The best thing to do is to try
solvents available and afffordable to you and see what works. I have tried
naphtha, furnace oil, and cooking oil with very limited
success.</FONT><BR><BR>Can the tars be captured is such a way as to become a
useful fuel? (e.g. fiber filters processed to? .... ) <BR></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial># Dry wood chips and sawdust will
filter some of the tars and dusts, and will absorb moisture from the gas. If
such chips are dried, they can be fed back into a gasifier. Sawdust might be
formable into bricks, or briquettes, and then used as fuel for a fire.
</FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
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style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Best wishes,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></DIV>
<DIV
class=moz-cite-prefix><BR>Craig<BR><BR>
<BR><BR><BR><BR>On 2/3/2013 9:50 AM, Kevin wrote:<BR></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Stuart</FONT></DIV>
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style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=kneebraceboy@yahoo.com.au href="mailto:kneebraceboy@yahoo.com.au"
moz-do-not-send="true">stuart mather</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=kchisholm@ca.inter.net
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net" moz-do-not-send="true">Kevin C</A> ;
<A title=gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, February 02, 2013
8:17 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Gasification]
mycoremediation of tarry water</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff; FONT-FAMILY: arial,
helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: #000; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<DIV><SPAN><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: 'times new roman', 'new york',
times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial>
<HR SIZE=1>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Kevin C <<A
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</A>><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> stuart mather <<A
href="mailto:kneebraceboy@yahoo.com.au"
moz-do-not-send="true">kneebraceboy@yahoo.com.au</A>>; Discussion of
biomass pyrolysis and gasification <<A
href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>>
<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Saturday, 2
February 2013 2:50 PM<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Gasification]
mycoremediation of tarry water<BR></FONT></DIV><BR><BR>Kevin
wrote:<BR> ....While I have not seen a report showing that blackwater
disposal is harmful to the environment, I have not seen one that says it
is not harmful either. However, a competent Gasifier Operator sent me
pictures of his blackwater dump site a few years after he stopped dumping
blackwater there, and the plants growing there seemed just as vigorous and
healthy as nearby plants outside teh dump zone.<BR>> <BR>> Best
wishes,<BR>> <BR>> Kevin<BR> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class=yui_3_7_2_29_1359847868608_57>That's intriguing Kevin,</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class=yui_3_7_2_29_1359847868608_57>So I wonder why there seems to be a
general consensus that dumping tarry water in a pond amounts to
environmental vandalism. Not saying your gasifier correspondent was making
it up. But you would think the President of Myanmar would have better
things to do than declare black water gasification leach ponds toxic sites
Military juntas aren't well known for their environmental awareness.
So why the concern about tar ponds people?</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class=yui_3_7_2_29_1359847868608_57>Stuart.</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class=yui_3_7_2_29_1359847868608_57> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class=yui_3_7_2_29_1359847868608_57><FONT face=Arial># A "Tar Pond" or
"Blackwater Disposal Pond" is a highly concentrated "disposal situation".
Too much of anything is almost certain to be a problem. One cannot grow
carrots or wheat in a pond used to dispose of distilled water, and ethanol
alcohol is a poison when taken in excess quantities at high
concentrations, as an extreme examples. The issues here are one of both
toxicity and concentration. A "Gasifier Tarpond" could indeed become
qualified as a 'superfund site." However, the same chemicals, if spread in
dilute form over say 1, or 10, or 100 square miles may present no
significant hazard, and may even yiled a net benefit. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class=yui_3_7_2_29_1359847868608_57> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class=yui_3_7_2_29_1359847868608_57><FONT face=Arial># I would say
intuitively that there is a combination of "toxicity and concentration"
above which, gasifire tar disposal is "bad", and that there are "toxicity
and concentration" combinations below which gasifier tars are not
hazardous, and may even be beneficial. I don't know all the compounds
in gasifier tars, and the concentrations below which they can be
"generally considered as safe." In my opinion, nobody can responsibly say
for certain that "gasifier tars are toxic" unless one specifies both the
components and concentration. Neither can anyone say for certain
that "gasifier tars are safe" unless one has a rational data
base to support the statement. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class=yui_3_7_2_29_1359847868608_57> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class=yui_3_7_2_29_1359847868608_57><FONT face=Arial># The process of
smoking fish, meat, and other food products can be looked on as a way to
dispose of "gasifier tars." :-) The fact that such "smoke tars" preserve
foods proves that such tars are toxic to some life-forms. Some studies
suggest that smoked foods are bad, while others suggest that while there
may be some "cancer deaths" as a result of eating such smoked foods,
the benefits from reducing deaths from pathogenic organisms that would
otherwise be present greatly exceed the "smoking detriments."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class=yui_3_7_2_29_1359847868608_57> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class=yui_3_7_2_29_1359847868608_57><FONT face=Arial># "The way to
eliminate the gasifier tar problem is to eliminate tar formation in the
first place." This is not that difficult with properly designed and
operated gasifiers. This can be done, as is evidenced by the many
gasifiers in operation fueling IC engines, with no tar problems.
Stratified downdraft gasifiers, and updraft gasifiers are well known as
"tarry gas producers." In some applications, such gasifier systems
can be very appropriate, because of their generally lower capital cost,
and their ability to handle a wider range of fuel sizing and moisture
content. Such gases can often be burned directly, without need for tar
removal. TLUD stoves, which are basically "an updraft gasifier with a
build-in burner to destroy the tars" are an excellent example of a
gasification system where tarry gas is not a problem. If one wants to
pipe such gas to a burner at a distance from the gasifier, then tar
build-up in piping is likely to be a problem. Water quenching of such gas
will remove many of the tars, ash and char that cause pipes to plug.
Then one has the problem and cost of dealing with the "blackwater." If the
problem, and cost of dealing with it are big enough, then it may be better
to employ a different gasifier, and different fuel preparation techniques,
to produce a gas with an acceptable tar level. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class=yui_3_7_2_29_1359847868608_57> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class=yui_3_7_2_29_1359847868608_57><FONT face=Arial>Best
wishes,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class=yui_3_7_2_29_1359847868608_57> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class=yui_3_7_2_29_1359847868608_57><FONT face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class=yui_3_7_2_29_1359847868608_57><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
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