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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Some possibly naieve questions a bit
outside the box::<br>
<br>
I assume we are considering mostly the cleanup of filters and
equipment.<br>
<br>
Can the chemical energy in these compounds be used in another
process? <br>
<br>
Is water the only solvent that can be used? (e.g. vegatable oil?
.... )<br>
<br>
Can the tars be captured is such a way as to become a useful
fuel? (e.g. fiber filters processed to? .... ) <br>
<br>
Craig<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 2/3/2013 9:50 AM, Kevin wrote:<br>
</div>
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<div><font face="Arial">Dear Stuart</font></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT:
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<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color:
black"><b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="kneebraceboy@yahoo.com.au"
href="mailto:kneebraceboy@yahoo.com.au">stuart mather</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" title="kchisholm@ca.inter.net"
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">Kevin C</a> ; <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org"
href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, February
02, 2013 8:17 PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Gasification]
mycoremediation of tarry water</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff; FONT-FAMILY: arial,
helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: #000; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<div><span><br>
</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: 'times new roman', 'new york',
times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" size="2">
<hr size="1"> <b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</span></b>
Kevin C <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>><br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</span></b>
stuart mather <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:kneebraceboy@yahoo.com.au">kneebraceboy@yahoo.com.au</a>>;
Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>>
<br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</span></b>
Saturday, 2 February 2013 2:50 PM<br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [Gasification] mycoremediation of tarry water<br>
</font></div>
<br>
<br>
Kevin wrote:<br>
....While I have not seen a report showing that
blackwater disposal is harmful to the environment, I have
not seen one that says it is not harmful either. However,
a competent Gasifier Operator sent me pictures of his
blackwater dump site a few years after he stopped dumping
blackwater there, and the plants growing there seemed just
as vigorous and healthy as nearby plants outside teh dump
zone.<br>
> <br>
> Best wishes,<br>
> <br>
> Kevin<br>
</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class="yui_3_7_2_29_1359847868608_57">That's intriguing
Kevin,</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class="yui_3_7_2_29_1359847868608_57">So I wonder why
there seems to be a general consensus that dumping tarry
water in a pond amounts to environmental vandalism. Not
saying your gasifier correspondent was making it up. But
you would think the President of Myanmar would have better
things to do than declare black water gasification leach
ponds toxic sites Military juntas aren't well known for
their environmental awareness. So why the concern about
tar ponds people?</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class="yui_3_7_2_29_1359847868608_57">Stuart.</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class="yui_3_7_2_29_1359847868608_57"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class="yui_3_7_2_29_1359847868608_57"><font face="Arial">#
A "Tar Pond" or "Blackwater Disposal Pond" is a highly
concentrated "disposal situation". Too much of anything
is almost certain to be a problem. One cannot grow
carrots or wheat in a pond used to dispose of distilled
water, and ethanol alcohol is a poison when taken in
excess quantities at high concentrations, as an extreme
examples. The issues here are one of both toxicity and
concentration. A "Gasifier Tarpond" could indeed become
qualified as a 'superfund site." However, the same
chemicals, if spread in dilute form over say 1, or 10,
or 100 square miles may present no significant hazard,
and may even yiled a net benefit. </font></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class="yui_3_7_2_29_1359847868608_57"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class="yui_3_7_2_29_1359847868608_57"><font face="Arial">#
I would say intuitively that there is a combination of
"toxicity and concentration" above which, gasifire tar
disposal is "bad", and that there are "toxicity and
concentration" combinations below which gasifier tars
are not hazardous, and may even be beneficial. I don't
know all the compounds in gasifier tars, and the
concentrations below which they can be "generally
considered as safe." In my opinion, nobody can
responsibly say for certain that "gasifier tars are
toxic" unless one specifies both the components and
concentration. Neither can anyone say for certain
that "gasifier tars are safe" unless one has a rational
data base to support the statement. </font></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class="yui_3_7_2_29_1359847868608_57"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class="yui_3_7_2_29_1359847868608_57"><font face="Arial">#
The process of smoking fish, meat, and other food
products can be looked on as a way to dispose of
"gasifier tars." :-) The fact that such "smoke tars"
preserve foods proves that such tars are toxic to some
life-forms. Some studies suggest that smoked foods are
bad, while others suggest that while there may be some
"cancer deaths" as a result of eating such smoked foods,
the benefits from reducing deaths from pathogenic
organisms that would otherwise be present greatly exceed
the "smoking detriments."</font></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class="yui_3_7_2_29_1359847868608_57"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class="yui_3_7_2_29_1359847868608_57"><font face="Arial">#
"The way to eliminate the gasifier tar problem is to
eliminate tar formation in the first place." This is not
that difficult with properly designed and operated
gasifiers. This can be done, as is evidenced by the many
gasifiers in operation fueling IC engines, with no tar
problems. Stratified downdraft gasifiers, and updraft
gasifiers are well known as "tarry gas producers." In
some applications, such gasifier systems can be very
appropriate, because of their generally lower capital
cost, and their ability to handle a wider range of fuel
sizing and moisture content. Such gases can often be
burned directly, without need for tar removal. TLUD
stoves, which are basically "an updraft gasifier with a
build-in burner to destroy the tars" are an excellent
example of a gasification system where tarry gas is not
a problem. If one wants to pipe such gas to a burner at
a distance from the gasifier, then tar build-up in
piping is likely to be a problem. Water quenching of
such gas will remove many of the tars, ash and char that
cause pipes to plug. Then one has the problem and cost
of dealing with the "blackwater." If the problem, and
cost of dealing with it are big enough, then it may be
better to employ a different gasifier, and different
fuel preparation techniques, to produce a gas with an
acceptable tar level. </font></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class="yui_3_7_2_29_1359847868608_57"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class="yui_3_7_2_29_1359847868608_57"><font face="Arial">Best
wishes,</font></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class="yui_3_7_2_29_1359847868608_57"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class="yui_3_7_2_29_1359847868608_57"><font face="Arial">Kevin</font></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class="yui_3_7_2_29_1359847868608_57"><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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