<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=us-ascii"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)"><!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style><![endif]--><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0cm;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0cm;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
p.MsoAcetate, li.MsoAcetate, div.MsoAcetate
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text Char";
margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:8.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";}
span.EmailStyle18
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.BalloonTextChar
{mso-style-name:"Balloon Text Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text";
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:612.0pt 792.0pt;
margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=EN-CA link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Hi Kevin:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>A loaded diesel can easily run egt of 550-650C. Pyrometers are common on big diesels but it does depend on where the measurement is taken. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Phil Marsh<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Marshbros.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>250 569-7858<o:p></o:p></span></b></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Gasification [mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Kevin<br><b>Sent:</b> November-28-13 12:27 PM<br><b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Gasification] Fluidised Bed Reactor<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Dear GF</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <a href="mailto:GFWHELL@aol.com" title="GFWHELL@aol.com">GFWHELL@aol.com</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>To:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <a href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org" title="gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Sent:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> Thursday, November 28, 2013 11:51 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Subject:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> Re: [Gasification] Fluidised Bed Reactor<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Kevin .<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>What sort of reaction could be expected if we applied the high temperature exhaust from an IC engine into a "reactor" containing biomass and at the same time reheated the "reactor" using some of the volatile vapors so produced? <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'># My understanding of exhaust twemperatures is that they run something as follows: (Anyone who knows better, please correct me:):</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> Unloaded Loaded</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Diesel ~300F=150C ~ 752 F =400C Max</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Spark. Ig: ~500F=260C ~752 F =400C Max</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>I conclude that even "hot engine exhaust would not be sufficient to operate the C + CO2 --> 2Co reaction that requires temperatures in excess of 700C to run.</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>perhaps we could also ionize the vapors produced within the reactor to above 5000 deg. which should yield a relatively low tar stream of gas .some of which could fuel the IC engine.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'># 5000 F would certainly run the above reaction. However, "Tars" areof the general formula CxHyOn. Such temperatures would certainly "partially crack" the tars, but probably would not "crack" them fully, to give a tar free gas. I am guessing you would end up with some CO, and some other tars of a different composition. However, they would likely be "heavier tars" that might be removed more easily.</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'># The other issue is the energy required to "ionize" stuff at 5,000 degrees. </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>This does not compromise the laws of Thermodynamics.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'># Exactly! Although many have tried, I don't know of any who have succeeded.</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Best wishes,</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Kevin</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>GF<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>In a message dated 11/28/2013 9:55:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, <a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a> writes:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Dear Dan<br><br>Quoting <a href="mailto:Carefreeland@aol.com">Carefreeland@aol.com</a>:<br><br>> Doug and all,<br>> Would some sort of a high temp molecular cracker be a good companion<br>> to create a quality gas from a fluidised bed? Possibly some steam and / or<br>> preheated air .involved? Seems if you wrapped the exhaust back through the<br>> hottest part of the flame in a reactor tube this can be accomplished.<br>> Sorry but I have been kinda outta the loop for a while.<br><br># Start by appreciating the two Fundamental Rules of Thermodynamics <br>and Thermo Chemistry:<br>Fundamental Rule #1: You can't get something for nothing<br>Fundamental Rule #2: As a matter of fact, you can't even break even.<br><br>For example, the reaction<br>C + O2 --> CO2 (`1)<br>is strongly exothermic, and gives off about 14,000 BTU per pound of <br>carbon that is oxidized.<br><br>If there was insufficient O2, and the C was only burned to CO, as follows:<br>C + 1/2O2 --> CO (2)<br>then only abut 4,000 BTU would be released per pound of carbon.<br><br>If we wanted to reverse reaction #1, we would have to put back 14,000 BTU/Lb C<br>OR, in the case of a gasifier, where the reaction<br>CO2 + C --> 2 CO (3)<br>is desired, we would have to "put back" energy as follows:<br>14,000 + 0 --> 2x4,000 + "X"<br>14,000 --> 8,000 + "X"<br>and it is obvious that "X" is 6,000 BTU, in order to respect <br>Fundamental Rule #1<br><br>"Molecular Crackers" and "Catalysts" do indeed work, but only when the <br>fundamental need to add or remove energy from a reaction is respected. <br>As long as the "fundamental need for an energy balance" is respected, <br>then many things are possible.<br><br>Best wishes,<br><br>Kevin<br><br>><br>> Dan Dimiduk<br><br><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Gasification mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:Gasification@bioenergylists.org">Gasification@bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/">http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></blockquote></div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>Gasification mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:Gasification@bioenergylists.org">Gasification@bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/">http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></blockquote></div></body></html>