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<DIV><FONT size=3>Dear GF</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=GFWHELL@aol.com href="mailto:GFWHELL@aol.com">GFWHELL@aol.com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, November 28, 2013 8:32
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Gasification] Fluidised Bed
Reactor</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT id=role_document color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial>
<DIV>Phil,</DIV>
<DIV> Why not make the exhaust manifold, the structural part of the
pyrolysis section of our gasifier.</DIV>
<DIV> A heavily loaded gasoline engine driving an alternator will produce
enough waste heat to carbonize the biomass.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3># That would certainly work, as a pyrolyzer. The effect
would be like a "heated retort." It would indeed produce char, and pyrolysis
gas.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3># However, teh pyrolysis gas would be very tarry, and would
not be suitable for "Engine Grade Gas" without adequate cleaning. However, it
would be very good as a "Heating Grade Gas."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3>Note that even with the higher exhaust temperatures for
heavily loaded diesels indicated by Phil, the temperature is marginally low
for the CO2 + C --> 2CO reaction to happen completely. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3>Best wishes,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3>Kevin</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>GF </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 11/28/2013 6:32:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, <A
href="mailto:phil@marshbros.ca">phil@marshbros.ca</A> writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Hi
Kevin:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">A
loaded diesel can easily run egt of 550-650C. Pyrometers are common on big
diesels but it does depend on where the measurement is taken.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 8pt">Phil
Marsh<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 8pt">Marshbros.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 8pt">250
569-7858<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=EN-US>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=EN-US>
Gasification [mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <B>On
Behalf Of </B>Kevin<BR><B>Sent:</B> November-28-13 12:27 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[Gasification] Fluidised Bed Reactor<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">Dear GF</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN: 5pt 0cm 5pt 3.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----
Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<A title=mailto:GFWHELL@aol.com
href="mailto:GFWHELL@aol.com">GFWHELL@aol.com</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<A title=mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
Thursday, November 28, 2013 11:51 AM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
Re: [Gasification] Fluidised Bed Reactor<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Kevin
.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">What
sort of reaction could be expected if we applied the high temperature
exhaust from an IC engine into a "reactor" containing biomass and at the
same time reheated the "reactor" using some of the volatile vapors so
produced? <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"># My understanding
of exhaust twemperatures is that they run something as follows: (Anyone
who knows better, please correct me:):</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">
Unloaded
Loaded</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">Diesel
~300F=150C
~ 752 F =400C
Max</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">Spark.
Ig: ~500F=260C
~752 F =400C Max</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">I conclude that
even "hot engine exhaust would not be sufficient to operate the C + CO2
--> 2Co reaction that requires temperatures in excess of 700C to
run.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">perhaps
we could also ionize the vapors produced within the reactor to above
5000 deg. which should yield a relatively low tar stream of gas
.some of which could fuel the IC engine.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"># 5000 F would
certainly run the above reaction. However, "Tars" areof the general
formula CxHyOn. Such temperatures would certainly "partially crack" the
tars, but probably would not "crack" them fully, to give a tar free gas. I
am guessing you would end up with some CO, and some other tars of a
different composition. However, they would likely be "heavier tars" that
might be removed more easily.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"># The other issue
is the energy required to "ionize" stuff at 5,000 degrees. </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">This
does not compromise the laws of
Thermodynamics.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"># Exactly!
Although many have tried, I don't know of any who have
succeeded.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">Best
wishes,</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">Kevin</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">GF<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">In
a message dated 11/28/2013 9:55:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, <A
title=mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</A>
writes:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm">
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dear
Dan<BR><BR>Quoting <A title=mailto:Carefreeland@aol.com
href="mailto:Carefreeland@aol.com">Carefreeland@aol.com</A>:<BR><BR>>
Doug and all,<BR>> Would some sort of a high temp
molecular cracker be a good companion<BR>> to create a quality
gas from a fluidised bed? Possibly some steam and / or<BR>>
preheated air .involved? Seems if you wrapped the exhaust back
through the<BR>> hottest part of the flame in a reactor tube this can
be accomplished.<BR>> Sorry but I have been
kinda outta the loop for a while.<BR><BR># Start by appreciating
the two Fundamental Rules of Thermodynamics <BR>and Thermo
Chemistry:<BR>Fundamental Rule #1: You can't get something for
nothing<BR>Fundamental Rule #2: As a matter of fact, you can't even
break even.<BR><BR>For example, the reaction<BR>C + O2 --> CO2
(`1)<BR>is strongly exothermic,
and gives off about 14,000 BTU per pound of <BR>carbon that is
oxidized.<BR><BR>If there was insufficient O2, and the C was only burned
to CO, as follows:<BR>C + 1/2O2 --> CO
(2)<BR>then only abut 4,000 BTU would be released per
pound of carbon.<BR><BR>If we wanted to reverse reaction #1, we would
have to put back 14,000 BTU/Lb C<BR>OR, in the case of a gasifier, where
the reaction<BR>CO2 + C --> 2 CO
(3)<BR>is desired, we would have to "put back" energy
as follows:<BR>14,000 + 0 --> 2x4,000 + "X"<BR>14,000 --> 8,000 +
"X"<BR>and it is obvious that "X" is 6,000 BTU, in order to
respect <BR>Fundamental Rule #1<BR><BR>"Molecular Crackers" and
"Catalysts" do indeed work, but only when the <BR>fundamental need
to add or remove energy from a reaction is respected. <BR>As long
as the "fundamental need for an energy balance" is respected,
<BR>then many things are possible.<BR><BR>Best
wishes,<BR><BR>Kevin<BR><BR>><BR>> Dan
Dimiduk<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Gasification
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