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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Thank you everyone. Many experts have
responded, and the responses have been singularly against using
steam for small electricity production. <br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
On 12/1/2013 1:57 PM, Tom Miles wrote:<br>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thomas,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">We
have seen four or five biomass fired Stirling companies fail
in the last 15 years. Successful Stirling engine companies
supply the solar and recreational markets with very small
systems and run mostly on LPG. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Stirling
DK had the potential to fill an important niche. I liked
their 9 kWe and 35 kWe units. It seems likely that they
failed for business reasons as much as technical reasons.
They were very slow to get organized and capitalize on the
early experience of the DTU units. It is not clear why they
charged so much.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">We
have a few small scale 50 kWe Organic Rankin cycle (ORC)
generators in operation in the US. They seem to work very
well for clean waste heat like exhaust from diesel gensets
or biogas. One of my clients is testing one on diesel
exhaust. <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://electratherm.com/">http://electratherm.com/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The
owner of a poultry farm tells me that his ORC unit works
fine but the heat exchanger from his poultry litter fired
gasifier keeps plugging up. (We have been there before.) He
gets 20-30 kWe from the $280,000 machine. The gasifier and
ORC system cost $1 million. There seem to be conflicting
reports about how much the system is actually run. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Steam
systems suit district heat or industrial settings where much
more steam is produced than needed for electricity otherwise
load balancing is a problem. We have seen a 1 MWe wood
boiler and steam turbine system fail at a prison due to the
inability to balance heating and electrical loads. We saw
many small turbines in the 250 kWe-1.5 MWe range installed
in the wood industry in the 1970s and 1980s. It was common
to see a sawmill generate higher pressure steam and use a
500 kWe backpressure turbine to reduce the pressure for
distribution to a large number of lumber dry kilns. We have
lost most of our sawmills in our region and electricity is
cheap so we haven’t seen any new systems installed. I
visited a 600 kWe Russian turbine at a district heating
plant in Hjordkær</span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext">,
</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Denmark
in about 2004. At the time they had been running since 1997
and were happy with it. They were serving about 700 homes
and a chocolate factory. It seemed like a good match. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">In
recent years we have seen a couple of small scale steam
systems in the 250 kWe to 2 MWe range. One supplier will
provide a 1 MWe modular fluidized bed steam system for $5
million. These need to be installed in industrial or utility
setting for reasons cited by others. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">We
were disappointed last year not to find more gasifiers with
demonstrated performance in the 2 MWe scale for the Alaska
project. Nexterra was just installing their 2 MWe Jenbacher
system at University of British Columbia. Babcock Volund
gave us a budget price but didn’t think putting a unit in
Alaska was interesting to them. Kawasaki Heavy Industries
seems to have abandoned their program that was based on the
CarboConsult downdraft gasifier. Their principal proponent
of the system retired. Etc. And we didn’t want a gasifier
with a wet cleaning system. We did receive budget proposals
from some companies that had 150 kWe to 250 kWe gasifiers
but that didn’t have field performance data to demonstrate
their production with multiple units.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">We
still need to demonstrate more viable small scale systems
with any technology. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Tom
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
Gasification
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Thomas Koch<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 01, 2013 9:42 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and
gasification<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Gasification] Small steam systems
plus gasifiers for electricity<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="DA">Jeff </span><span lang="DA"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="DA"> </span><span lang="DA"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Striling.dk
just went banckrupt – and gasification gas is Dynamite.</span><span
lang="DA"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span
lang="DA"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thomas
</span><span lang="DA"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span
lang="DA"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"
lang="DA">Fra:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"
lang="DA"> Gasification [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]
<b>På vegne af </b>Jeff Davis<br>
<b>Sendt:</b> 1. december 2013 18:37<br>
<b>Til:</b> Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and
gasification<br>
<b>Emne:</b> Re: [Gasification] Small steam systems plus
gasifiers for electricity</span><span lang="DA"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DA"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DA">I would have to agree
with Steve. Steam is a lot like playing with dynamite. A
gas producer and an off the shelf engine is the system to
beat.<br>
<br>
Too bad nobody is working on a Stirling engine for using
excess heat.<br>
<br>
<br>
Jeff<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 12/01/2013 11:29 AM, <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sabbadess@aol.com">sabbadess@aol.com</a>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""
lang="DA">I found that small steam at the residential
scale is just a bad idea.</span><span lang="DA"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DA"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
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