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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=NL link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thomas, not really, you have to visit the plant owners to get reliable data. But as long as they are able to sell more installations, they seem to function. Every potential customer will look at the operational performance of existing plants. Biomass gasification is only of interest at small scale from logistics and efficiency point of view. At large scale combustion becomes competitive.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Harrie<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Gasification [mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Thomas Koch<br><b>Sent:</b> zondag 1 december 2013 18:48<br><b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Gasification] Small steam systems plus gasifiers for electricity<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=DA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Harrie </span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=DA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Do you have any reliable data from someone that is not biased on these gasifiers?</span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thomas</span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=DA style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Fra:</span></b><span lang=DA style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Gasification [<a href="mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>] <b>På vegne af </b>Harrie Knoef<br><b>Sendt:</b> 1. december 2013 18:44<br><b>Til:</b> 'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification'<br><b>Emne:</b> Re: [Gasification] Small steam systems plus gasifiers for electricity</span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=DA> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thomas, two German manufacturers have installed over 100 units, small scale!</span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Commercially with guarantees, although I do not know which guarantees</span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Harrie</span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Gasification [<a href="mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Thomas Koch<br><b>Sent:</b> zondag 1 december 2013 18:38<br><b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Gasification] Small steam systems plus gasifiers for electricity</span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal> <span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=DA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Ken </span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=DA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I fully agree from a thermodynamical point of view – but it is very difficult to design a reliablt working small scale gasification system </span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Best regards</span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thomas </span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=DA style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Fra:</span></b><span lang=DA style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Gasification [<a href="mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>] <b>På vegne af </b>Ken Boak<br><b>Sendt:</b> 1. december 2013 17:42<br><b>Til:</b> Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification<br><b>Emne:</b> Re: [Gasification] Small steam systems plus gasifiers for electricity</span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=DA> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=DA>Hi All,<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=DA> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=DA>Forget small scale steam for electric power generation. Very low overall conversion efficiency and a full-time control problem to prevent potential steam explosions, make this a technology cul-de-sac not worth exploring. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=DA> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=DA>The efficiency of a good downdraft gasifier and internal combustion engine will produce four times as much electricity as any steam engine could - for the same quantity of wood fuel.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=DA> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=DA>I've recently been doing test runs on an APL 20kW Power Pallet, and saw 49.5kWh of electricity produced in 2.75 hours from a standard 200 litre (55 US gal) oil drum of woodchip fuel.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=DA> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=DA>regards<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=DA> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=DA> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=DA>Ken<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=DA> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=DA>On 1 December 2013 16:29, <<a href="mailto:sabbadess@aol.com" target="_blank">sabbadess@aol.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=DA style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Paul,</span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=DA style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=DA style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>I actually built a prototype that did this:</span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=DA style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=DA style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIFTBITYjb0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIFTBITYjb0</a></span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=DA style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=DA style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>I found that small steam at the residential scale is just a bad idea. The first major problem is wet layup seizing all the parts together. Then there are the thermal lags of the gasifier and boiler for a step change in electrical load. Then there is the corrosion/explosion hazard.....It just kept getting worse even though it sounded great in theory. I am FAR happier with my gasifier/engine combo.</span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=DA style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=DA style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Stephen Abbadessa</span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=DA style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Paul Anderson <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>><br>To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification <<a href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>Sent: Sun, Dec 1, 2013 11:21 am<br>Subject: [Gasification] Small steam systems plus gasifiers for electricity</span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=DA style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Dear Tom, Thomas and all,<br><br><br></span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=DA style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>On 11/30/2013 5:44 PM, Thomas Koch wrote:</span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre><span lang=DA style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>Tom </span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=DA style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>.....</span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=DA style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>I can only agree that for small systems steam systems looks as the most reliable way to produce electricity</span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=DA style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'> </span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=DA style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>Thomas</span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=DA style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'> </span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></pre></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=DA style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>This "low tech" approach appeals to me (and maybe to some others) because the Up Draft gasifiers are great for making clean heat, of which much gets wasted in cases such as people making char and biochar. <br><br>I acknowledge that the <u>small steam systems for electricity</u> do not require gasification technologies, and therefore this topic should soon be off of the Gasification Listserv. But for the moment, who are the readers who have interest in taking this discussion further? <br><br>Paul<br><br><br></span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></p><pre><span lang=DA style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD </span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=DA style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> </span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=DA style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>Skype: paultlud Phone: <a href="tel:%2B1-309-452-7072" target="_blank">+1-309-452-7072</a></span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=DA style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a></span><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></pre></div></div></div></div><div><pre><tt><span lang=DA style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>_______________________________________________</span></tt><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><tt><span lang=DA style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Gasification mailing list</span></tt><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><tt><span lang=DA style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> </span></tt><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><tt><span lang=DA style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address</span></tt><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><tt><span lang=DA style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><a href="mailto:Gasification@bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Gasification@bioenergylists.org</a></span></tt><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><tt><span lang=DA style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> </span></tt><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><tt><span lang=DA style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page</span></tt><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><tt><span lang=DA style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org</a></span></tt><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><tt><span lang=DA style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> </span></tt><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><tt><span lang=DA style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site:</span></tt><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><tt><span lang=DA style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><a href="http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/</a></span></tt><span lang=DA><o:p></o:p></span></pre></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=DA><br>_______________________________________________<br>Gasification mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:Gasification@bioenergylists.org">Gasification@bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=DA> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></body></html>