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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Tom
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">It is real pleasure to participate in a debate there are contributions like this.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">First Stirling – look here --
<a href="http://ing.dk/artikel/stirling-dk-om-vaekstfonden-solgte-et-ufaerdigt-produkt-158574">
http://ing.dk/artikel/stirling-dk-om-vaekstfonden-solgte-et-ufaerdigt-produkt-158574</a> - run through Google translate. The company got over 30 million € and produced a total of less than 15000 hours operation – but employed an army of business developers
– big headed incompetent greedy venture capitalist investors combined with too optimistc predictions for the performance of the technology.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Hjordkjær – heavily supported by public funds would never have worked In a competitive environment.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Our ORC poultry friend. Lets assume he operates 4000 hours pr year (probably optimistic) and produce (25 kWe*4000 hours) 100.000 Kwh. The plant
lasts for 10 years and he spends 10 % of the investment in O&M and the interest on the investment Is 5 %.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">If he invest 280.000 $ the yearly costs are (10%+10%+5%)*280.000 = 70.000 $ = 0,7 US$/kWh -- if he spends 1.000.000 the electricity price is 2,5
$/kWh. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">And there are potentially a risk that the “cooling agent” will escape to the atmosphere and be a very potent greenhouse gas<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Gasifiers – I think it a good idea to ask you selves why it might be a good idea to build a gasifier. I personally try to maintain the idea that
it is my work – and thus I should earn money.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Here in Denmark there has been a change in the price structure in the energy market. Electricity is traded internationally – heat is more local.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">In 2002 I started building a 2,3 MW (700 kWe) biomass gasifier. At that time the electricity price was (or at least we where dreaming about it
would be) approx. 20-25 UScent/kWh. And the heat was much less. But as the electricity marked liberalized the price on electricity dropped to 10,5 UScent/kWh (0,6 DKK) and the heat became much more expensive.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The fundamentals of the economy of a biomass gasifier for CHP is that you bye a cheap fuel (eg wood) you produce 20-30 % expensive product – electricity
- and 50-60 % cheap waste heat at a temperature level where it is saleable. <o:p>
</o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">But when I had to start the gasifier (and had spend 3 mio $) the prices structure had turned the business model upside down making it MUCH more
expensive to produce heat by a well working gasifier (that does not exist as far as I know) than by a wood chip boiler.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">My conclusion was to stop developing risky technology and become a consultant for some years.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I am very interested to see the business plan that – According to the rules for getting public funds have to follow an application – was made to
support the DTU-Weiss gasification project. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">If anybody is interested there is a 2,3 MW 3 stage TK Energi gasifier for sale – if we can get 5000 $ more than scrap value we are happy . Never
operated in this size – but 18.000 hours on a 400 KW pilot gasifier.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> <a href="http://noest.all2web.at/news/docs/1278_TK_Energi_ebs_DK.pdf">http://noest.all2web.at/news/docs/1278_TK_Energi_ebs_DK.pdf</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">My conclusion is that energy is too cheap to justify the CAPEX and OPEX of a gasification system unless it is VERY big.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">But it is still my hobby
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">But for work I only work with large pressurized entrained flow gasifiers.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thomas<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">Fra:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> Gasification [mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org]
<b>På vegne af </b>Tom Miles<br>
<b>Se</b></span><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">ndt:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> 1. december 2013 20:58<br>
<b>Til:</b> 'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification'<br>
<b>Emne:</b> Re: [Gasification] Small steam systems plus gasifiers for electricity<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thomas,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">We have seen four or five biomass fired Stirling companies fail in the last 15 years. Successful Stirling engine companies supply the solar and
recreational markets with very small systems and run mostly on LPG. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Stirling DK had the potential to fill an important niche. I liked their 9 kWe and 35 kWe units. It seems likely that they failed for business reasons
as much as technical reasons. They were very slow to get organized and capitalize on the early experience of the DTU units. It is not clear why they charged so much.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">We have a few small scale 50 kWe Organic Rankin cycle (ORC) generators in operation in the US. They seem to work very well for clean waste heat
like exhaust from diesel gensets or biogas. One of my clients is testing one on diesel exhaust.
<a href="http://electratherm.com/">http://electratherm.com/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The owner of a poultry farm tells me that his ORC unit works fine but the heat exchanger from his poultry litter fired gasifier keeps plugging
up. (We have been there before.) He gets 20-30 kWe from the $280,000 machine. The gasifier and ORC system cost $1 million. There seem to be conflicting reports about how much the system is actually run.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Steam systems suit district heat or industrial settings where much more steam is produced than needed for electricity otherwise load balancing
is a problem. We have seen a 1 MWe wood boiler and steam turbine system fail at a prison due to the inability to balance heating and electrical loads. We saw many small turbines in the 250 kWe-1.5 MWe range installed in the wood industry in the 1970s and 1980s.
It was common to see a sawmill generate higher pressure steam and use a 500 kWe backpressure turbine to reduce the pressure for distribution to a large number of lumber dry kilns. We have lost most of our sawmills in our region and electricity is cheap so
we haven’t seen any new systems installed. I visited a 600 kWe Russian turbine at a district heating plant in Hjordkær</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext">,
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Denmark in about 2004. At the time they had been running since 1997 and were happy with it. They were serving about 700 homes and a chocolate factory. It seemed
like a good match. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">In recent years we have seen a couple of small scale steam systems in the 250 kWe to 2 MWe range. One supplier will provide a 1 MWe modular fluidized
bed steam system for $5 million. These need to be installed in industrial or utility setting for reasons cited by others.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">We were disappointed last year not to find more gasifiers with demonstrated performance in the 2 MWe scale for the Alaska project. Nexterra was
just installing their 2 MWe Jenbacher system at University of British Columbia. Babcock Volund gave us a budget price but didn’t think putting a unit in Alaska was interesting to them. Kawasaki Heavy Industries seems to have abandoned their program that was
based on the CarboConsult downdraft gasifier. Their principal proponent of the system retired. Etc. And we didn’t want a gasifier with a wet cleaning system. We did receive budget proposals from some companies that had 150 kWe to 250 kWe gasifiers but that
didn’t have field performance data to demonstrate their production with multiple units.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">We still need to demonstrate more viable small scale systems with any technology.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Tom <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> Gasification [<a href="mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Thomas Koch<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 01, 2013 9:42 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Gasification] Small steam systems plus gasifiers for electricity<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Jeff
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Striling.dk just went banckrupt – and gasification gas is Dynamite.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thomas
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">Fra:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> Gasification [<a href="mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]
<b>På vegne af </b>Jeff Davis<br>
<b>Sendt:</b> 1. december 2013 18:37<br>
<b>Til:</b> Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification<br>
<b>Emne:</b> Re: [Gasification] Small steam systems plus gasifiers for electricity</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I would have to agree with Steve. Steam is a lot like playing with dynamite. A gas producer and an off the shelf engine is the system to beat.<br>
<br>
Too bad nobody is working on a Stirling engine for using excess heat.<br>
<br>
<br>
Jeff<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 12/01/2013 11:29 AM, <a href="mailto:sabbadess@aol.com">sabbadess@aol.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">I found that small steam at the residential scale is just a bad idea.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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