<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; color: rgb(127, 127, 127); "><b>Subject: </b></span><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; "><b>Biochar versus Organic Material/ compost</b><br></span></div><br><br>Hi David, your general comments much appreciated, but one point I would like to argue, - sequestering carbon by putting organic material in the ground is fine in the cooler latitudes, it will stay there quite a long time, but in the tropics, no way, - it is gone in months, weeks in some cases.<br>Wood chips take longer, but even they are gone in less than a year, and a garden bed in which you put heaps of compost, whilst anything will grow like mad, needs re-composting only months later, - whether you grow anything or not.<br>In the Tropics, everything happens much faster, so Biochar seems the better option.<br><br>Cheers,<br>Geoff Thomas<div> <br><div><div>On 09/12/2013, at 5:00 AM, <a href="mailto:gasification-request@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div>Send Gasification mailing list submissions to<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><a href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org<br><br>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>gasification-request@lists.bioenergylists.org<br><br>You can reach the person managing the list at<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>gasification-owner@lists.bioenergylists.org<br><br>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>than "Re: Contents of Gasification digest..."<br><br><br>Today's Topics:<br><br> 1. Re: [Gasification]<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Small<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>steam<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>systems<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>plus<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>gasifiers<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>for<br> electricity (Jeff Davis)<br> 2. Re: Biochar et al. (Joe Barnas)<br> 3. Re: Biochar et al. (David Murphy)<br> 4. Re: Biochar et al. (David Murphy)<br><br><br>----------------------------------------------------------------------<br><br>Message: 1<br>Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 15:15:07 -0500<br>From: Jeff Davis <jeffdavis0124@gmail.com><br>To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>Subject: Re: [Gasification]<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Small<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>steam<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>systems<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>plus<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>gasifiers<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>for<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>electricity<br>Message-ID: <52A381CB.1070207@gmail.com><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"<br><br>Tom,<br><br><br>I never had any luck carbonizing grass/weeds with the grass-a-fire. One <br>would rat hole and the other needed denser charcoal bed. But Roger <br>Sampson rice husk method showed hope.<br><br>Working full time makes it unreliable to harvest dry grass/weeds late in <br>the season at least for this bag of old achy bones. In other words it's <br>not an easy fuel for a peasant. The baler went to the sale a bit ago and <br>the mower and rake goes this spring. But I now have an old and almost <br>functioning flail harvester that should work for compost production.<br><br>I hope to start phasing out grasses with Staghorn Sumac a much more <br>usable fuel.<br><br><br>Jeff<br><br><br><br>On 12/02/2013 11:39 PM, Tom Miles wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Jeff,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">We find that biochar from a downdraft gasifier composted 15% v/v with <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">alfalfa and wood chips makes a very nice compost. We have used it as a <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">substitute for a vermiculite-peat-bark blend. Tree seedling response <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">is generally good. Some species are pH sensitive and the alfalfa <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">pushes the compost pH up so adjustments need to be made. In Japan Dr. <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Ogawa rinses high pH grass (bamboo) chars to reduce soluble alkali <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">before application to the tree root zone.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Biochar-peat and biochar--coco peat blends work well.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">So if you have a gasifier in a location where there is no market for <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">power you can make heat for greenhouses and a char byproduct that you <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">can compost for use in the greenhouse. We estimate that the combined <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">savings from the heat (propane) and soil amendments for a 10 MMBtuh (3 <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">MW) system are about $350,000 per year.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">David Yarrow likes chars from grasses. You can make char in your <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">grass-a-fire.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Tom<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><br>-------------- next part --------------<br>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20131207/83b981bd/attachment-0001.html><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 2<br>Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 17:33:51 -0800<br>From: Joe Barnas <joe.barnas333@gmail.com><br>To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>Subject: Re: [Gasification] Biochar et al.<br>Message-ID:<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><CANweOnyYUHiVhye-g3G2XaXc5EGaVp6oQ_KyJXpCmfVJoMrhsw@mail.gmail.com><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"<br><br>DAVID,<br><br>Thankyou for the insightful overview of biochar and comparative<br>functionality of Zeolite, of which I was not familiar.<br><br>However one thing I am focused on is how to address catastrophic global<br>climate change and for that having billions of gardeners sequestering<br>carbon, while building healthy soil and hence healthy food is not something<br>that Zeolite can provide. It is another tool in growing food, yes, but<br>let's not lose sight of the long term benefit of promoting biochar. I<br>might even try mixing some with biochar just to gain the N adsorption<br>benefits.<br><br><br>On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 2:00 PM, David Murphy <djfmurphy@dodo.com.au> wrote:<br><br><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Greetings Biochar/Gasifier people !<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Everybody & his dog seems to have something to say about<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">charcoal/biochar/biochar-compost mix and so on. Well, here?s another<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">dog to bark his piece !<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Biochar is often seen as the great agricultural panacea, but *it is not*.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Biochar is a name given to plain ordinary charcoal to indicate that it is<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">destined for use in soil improvement, but basically it is still plain<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">ordinary charcoal, just crushed into smaller particles. In some<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">circumstances it is a very beneficial tool but it is not magical as some<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">proponents seem to think. Just remember, all charcoal has a bio-origin -<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">wood.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">In some Ag. trials in Australia it significantly improved crop volume<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">(treble in one case) but in other instances, nothing worth writing home<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">about. It depends on what the soil is like to start with.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Charcoal is stable. That means it does not take part in any composting<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">system (which is one primarily of bacterial digestion) and it is<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">indigestible so that when offered as a dietary supplement (in poultry food<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">for example) it passes through the digestive system physically unchanged<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">but will adsorb a high proportion of the gases and some toxins produced in<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">the process of digestion, because that is what charcoal does. For this<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">reason, it's adsorption capability, poultry will generally do better on a<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">little charcoal.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Quite a few pages could be filled on the beneficial services provided by<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">charcoal as it travels through the digestive system, but it does it as<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">charcoal only and as nothing else. By all means use a little in the feed,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">you can only benefit.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">The only physical way to change the nature of charcoal is to burn it.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">That is why it lasts in soil (or wherever it is) for thousands of years.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">It has an incredibly high surface area of 360 m2 (varies) and is a mass<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">of minute tunnels which in turn means a very high volume and gases become<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">trapped in these tunnels. It does not *ab*sorb, it *ad*sorbs and traps<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">only. The difference between absorb and adsorb is the same as the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">difference in liquids of suspension and solution. Clay particles will be<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">in suspension, sugar and salt go into solution.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Charcoal is useful in an aerobic composting system because again of the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">entrapment of air in the tunnels. A composting system goes well if<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">there is enough oxygen bearing air available to the bacteria which are a<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">significant part of the system. The more air, the higher the population<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">of bacteria (other factors being OK). The charcoal itself is<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">inoperative, and doesn?t change, nor is it a catalyst, it simply provides a<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">service. It will only provide a haven for soil benevolent bacteria if<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">there is something trapped in the tunnels which the bacteria can eat.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Charcoal is a good adsorber of gas and liquid simply because that is what<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">it does. Zeolite on the other hand, can have an even higher surface are<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">per gram and has a propensity to entrap gases, most particularly nitrogen<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">in it?s various forms ? as gas ? ammonium for example ? and in liquids as a<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">salt of NO3 . It actually draws them in (like a magnet attracts ferric<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">objects) where charcoal just takes it as it comes. It is easy to see<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">also why charcoal is so effective as a filter, but if you have a solution<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">rich in nitrogen, run it through Zeolite and the N will be removed. Add<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">some to the litter in poultry grower sheds, there will be fewer<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">mortalities because the ammonia which sometimes will asphixiate small birds<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">will be absorbed. Zeolite will take N out of solution, charcoal will<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">not. There's 40 natural forms of Zeolite and more than another 150 can<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">be synthesised, so choose carefully for the one most appropriate to your<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">problem. Zeolite can perform an amazing range of actions. Once used<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">and applied as fertiliser, Zeolite subsequently will release the N slowly<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">and remain in the soil as a balancer of N. Too much, it will take it in<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">(so that the soil pH is not lowered) and release it as required.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Charcoal?s great stuff though, it's easy to make and holds answers to a<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">lot of problems - but not all !<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">David Murphy.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">_______________________________________________<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Gasification mailing list<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Gasification@bioenergylists.org<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><br><br>-- <br>Joe Barnas<br>Portland, OR<br>541-525-1665<br>-------------- next part --------------<br>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20131207/eab8c32d/attachment-0001.html><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 3<br>Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 15:15:13 +1100<br>From: David Murphy <djfmurphy@dodo.com.au><br>To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>Subject: Re: [Gasification] Biochar et al.<br>Message-ID: <52A3F251.2080701@dodo.com.au><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"<br><br>Joe, you might find it of interest to look up John <br>D. Hamaker on the net. He was an American <br>Mechanical Engineer who turned his mind (and <br>subsequently devoted his life) to improving soil <br>by the addition of rock dust. He saw global <br>warming as a precursor to the next ice age. He <br>saw an ice age as essential refurbishment of the <br>earth's resources. His argument has a lot of <br>good solid logioc to it and it's worth adding to <br>your store of knowledge on the general topic. <br>If he's proven right, then we're in a lot of <br>trouble ! If you want to study it further I <br>have a DVD I made from a tape he produced I could <br>let you have.<br><br>Rock dust is a storehouse of minerals, all of <br>which are essential to growth. First to plants <br>and then to the animals which eat them - including <br>us humans. Rock dust is insoluble to water but <br>not to enzymes which are produced by soil <br>benevolent bacteria - bacteria which are present <br>in soil with good OM and in compost. Many <br>readers of this string will be aware of it's <br>benefits when used as fertiliser.<br><br>Seeking to remedy climate change purported to be <br>caused by anthropomorphic global warming is an <br>extraordinarily complex question. And seeking to <br>make a contribution by sequestering carbon as <br>charcoal is in itself another complex range of <br>issues. The charcoal must be first ligneos <br>carbon - wood - and it is probably almost as good <br>to lock up some of that carbon in timber for <br>building houses or making furniture.<br><br>I'd promote the first step by making the <br>sequestration of the carbon as part of a broader <br>program of building building soil organic matter <br>OM. This includes animate carbon as well as <br>vegetative. At least get it up to 5% to plough <br>depth, say 10 inches (250mm) as a minimum, aiming <br>at 20%. That in itself locks away a lot of <br>carbon, but of a different nature, in that it's <br>available to contribute to plant growth, growth <br>without the need for chemical or artificial <br>fertilisers.<br><br>Every 1% increase in soil OM (world wide) would be <br>a lockup of around 30 billion tonnes of carbon in <br>a world which generates now (probably) 20 million <br>tonnes annually. Just for the record, the <br>biggest emitter of CO2, bigger than every other <br>agency combined - every factory, airplane, car <br>truck tractor etc and so on - is the soil of the <br>earth as it respires. So, the more land we put <br>down under crop to feed the increasing billions, <br>the more CO2 we produce and put into the atmosphere.<br><br>So, it's a race against a proven runner - so <br>called mother Nature - and she's a proven stayer.<br><br>On the other hand, some of the wise owls are now <br>saying it's not CO2 at all, but PCB's causing the <br>damage. Maybe they're right - who knows _for <br>sure ?_ Nobody I'm aware of despite what they <br>say. It's all conjecture, some of it soundly <br>based, but still conjecture relying on historical <br>info compiled over a geological blink.<br><br>Using charcoal and zeolite together is a bit like <br>wearing belt & braces with self-supporting <br>trousers. It certainly works !<br><br>The easy and less costly way is to just get the OM <br>into the soil and plant stuff to grow and suck up <br>all the CO2 and N.<br><br>But whatever you do, don't stop the good work.<br><br>David Murphy.<br><br>On 08/12/2013 12:33 PM, Joe Barnas wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite">DAVID,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Thankyou for the insightful overview of biochar <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">and comparative functionality of Zeolite, of <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">which I was not familiar.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">However one thing I am focused on is how to <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">address catastrophic global climate change and <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">for that having billions of gardeners <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">sequestering carbon, while building healthy soil <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">and hence healthy food is not something that <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Zeolite can provide. It is another tool in <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">growing food, yes, but let's not lose sight of <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">the long term benefit of promoting biochar. I <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">might even try mixing some with biochar just to <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">gain the N adsorption benefits.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 2:00 PM, David Murphy <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><djfmurphy@dodo.com.au <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><mailto:djfmurphy@dodo.com.au>> wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Greetings Biochar/Gasifier people !<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Everybody & his dog seems to have something<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> to say about<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> charcoal/biochar/biochar-compost mix and so<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> on.Well, here's another dog to bark his piece !<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Biochar is often seen as the great<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> agricultural panacea, but _it is<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> not_.Biochar is a name given to plain<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> ordinary charcoal to indicate that it is<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> destined for use in soil improvement, but<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> basically it is still plain ordinary<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> charcoal, just crushed into smaller<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> particles. In some circumstances it is a<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> very beneficial tool but it is not magical<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> as some proponents seem to think. Just<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> remember, all charcoal has a bio-origin - wood.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> In some Ag. trials in Australiait<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> significantly improved crop volume (treble<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> in one case) but in other instances, nothing<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> worth writing home about.It depends on what<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> the soil is like to start with.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Charcoal is stable.That means it does not<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> take part in any composting system (which is<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> one primarily of bacterial digestion) and it<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> is indigestible so that when offered as a<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> dietary supplement (in poultry food for<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> example) it passes through the digestive<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> system physically unchanged but will adsorb<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> a high proportion of the gases and some<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> toxins produced in the process of digestion,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> because that is what charcoal does. For this<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> reason, it's adsorption capability, poultry<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> will generally do better on a little charcoal.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Quite a few pages could be filled on the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> beneficial services provided by charcoal as<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> it travels through the digestive system, but<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> it does it as charcoal only and as nothing<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> else. By all means use a little in the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> feed, you can only benefit.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> The only physical way to change the nature<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> of charcoal is to burn it. That is why it<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> lasts in soil (or wherever it is) for<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> thousands of years.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> It has an incredibly high surface area of<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> 360 m^2 (varies) and is a mass of minute<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> tunnels which in turn means a very high<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> volume and gases become trapped in these<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> tunnels.It does not _ab_sorb, it _ad_sorbs<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> and traps only.The difference between absorb<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> and adsorb is the same as the difference in<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> liquids of suspension and solution.Clay<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> particles will be in suspension, sugar and<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> salt go into solution.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Charcoal is useful in an aerobic composting<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> system because again of the entrapment of<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> air in the tunnels.A composting system goes<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> well if there is enough oxygen bearing air<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> available to the bacteria which are a<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> significant part of the system.The more air,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> the higher the population of bacteria (other<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> factors being OK). The charcoal itself is<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> inoperative, and doesn't change, nor is it a<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> catalyst, it simply provides a service. It<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> will only provide a haven for soil<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> benevolent bacteria if there is something<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> trapped in the tunnels which the bacteria<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> can eat.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Charcoal is a good adsorber of gas and<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> liquid simply because that is what it<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> does.Zeolite on the other hand, can have an<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> even higher surface are per gram and has a<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> propensity to entrap gases, most<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> particularly nitrogen in it's various forms<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> -- as gas -- ammonium for example -- and in<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> liquids as a salt of NO_3 .It actually draws<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> them in (like a magnet attracts ferric<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> objects) where charcoal just takes it as it<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> comes. It is easy to see also why<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> charcoal is so effective as a filter, but if<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> you have a solution rich in nitrogen, run it<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> through Zeolite and the N will be removed.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Add some to the litter in poultry grower<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> sheds, there will be fewer mortalities<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> because the ammonia which sometimes will<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> asphixiate small birds will be absorbed.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Zeolite will take N out of solution,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> charcoal will not. There's 40 natural<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> forms of Zeolite and more than another 150<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> can be synthesised, so choose carefully for<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> the one most appropriate to your problem. <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Zeolite can perform an amazing range of<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> actions. Once used and applied as<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> fertiliser, Zeolite subsequently will<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> release the N slowly and remain in the soil<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> as a balancer of N. Too much, it will take<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> it in (so that the soil pH is not lowered)<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> and release it as required.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Charcoal's great stuff though, it's easy to<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> make and holds answers to a lot of problems<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> - but not all !<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> David Murphy.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> _______________________________________________<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Gasification mailing list<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> to Send a Message to the list, use the email<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> address<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Gasification@bioenergylists.org<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> <mailto:Gasification@bioenergylists.org><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> use the web page<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> for more Gasifiers, News and Information<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> see our web site:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">-- <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Joe Barnas<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Portland, OR<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">541-525-1665<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">_______________________________________________<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Gasification mailing list<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Gasification@bioenergylists.org<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/<br></blockquote><br>-------------- next part --------------<br>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20131208/4433d644/attachment-0001.html><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 4<br>Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 18:45:24 +1100<br>From: David Murphy <djfmurphy@dodo.com.au><br>To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>Subject: Re: [Gasification] Biochar et al.<br>Message-ID: <52A42394.5010509@dodo.com.au><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"<br><br>Joe, my apologies - a typo. Instead of " a <br>world which generates now (probably) 20 million <br>tonnes annually." that should read 20 _billion_ <br>not million !<br><br>On 08/12/2013 12:33 PM, Joe Barnas wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite">DAVID,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Thankyou for the insightful overview of biochar <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">and comparative functionality of Zeolite, of <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">which I was not familiar.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">However one thing I am focused on is how to <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">address catastrophic global climate change and <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">for that having billions of gardeners <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">sequestering carbon, while building healthy soil <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">and hence healthy food is not something that <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Zeolite can provide. It is another tool in <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">growing food, yes, but let's not lose sight of <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">the long term benefit of promoting biochar. I <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">might even try mixing some with biochar just to <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">gain the N adsorption benefits.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 2:00 PM, David Murphy <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><djfmurphy@dodo.com.au <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><mailto:djfmurphy@dodo.com.au>> wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Greetings Biochar/Gasifier people !<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Everybody & his dog seems to have something<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> to say about<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> charcoal/biochar/biochar-compost mix and so<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> on.Well, here's another dog to bark his piece !<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Biochar is often seen as the great<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> agricultural panacea, but _it is<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> not_.Biochar is a name given to plain<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> ordinary charcoal to indicate that it is<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> destined for use in soil improvement, but<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> basically it is still plain ordinary<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> charcoal, just crushed into smaller<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> particles. In some circumstances it is a<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> very beneficial tool but it is not magical<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> as some proponents seem to think. Just<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> remember, all charcoal has a bio-origin - wood.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> In some Ag. trials in Australiait<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> significantly improved crop volume (treble<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> in one case) but in other instances, nothing<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> worth writing home about.It depends on what<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> the soil is like to start with.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Charcoal is stable.That means it does not<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> take part in any composting system (which is<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> one primarily of bacterial digestion) and it<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> is indigestible so that when offered as a<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> dietary supplement (in poultry food for<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> example) it passes through the digestive<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> system physically unchanged but will adsorb<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> a high proportion of the gases and some<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> toxins produced in the process of digestion,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> because that is what charcoal does. For this<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> reason, it's adsorption capability, poultry<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> will generally do better on a little charcoal.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Quite a few pages could be filled on the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> beneficial services provided by charcoal as<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> it travels through the digestive system, but<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> it does it as charcoal only and as nothing<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> else. By all means use a little in the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> feed, you can only benefit.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> The only physical way to change the nature<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> of charcoal is to burn it. That is why it<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> lasts in soil (or wherever it is) for<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> thousands of years.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> It has an incredibly high surface area of<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> 360 m^2 (varies) and is a mass of minute<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> tunnels which in turn means a very high<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> volume and gases become trapped in these<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> tunnels.It does not _ab_sorb, it _ad_sorbs<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> and traps only.The difference between absorb<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> and adsorb is the same as the difference in<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> liquids of suspension and solution.Clay<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> particles will be in suspension, sugar and<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> salt go into solution.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Charcoal is useful in an aerobic composting<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> system because again of the entrapment of<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> air in the tunnels.A composting system goes<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> well if there is enough oxygen bearing air<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> available to the bacteria which are a<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> significant part of the system.The more air,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> the higher the population of bacteria (other<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> factors being OK). The charcoal itself is<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> inoperative, and doesn't change, nor is it a<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> catalyst, it simply provides a service. It<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> will only provide a haven for soil<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> benevolent bacteria if there is something<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> trapped in the tunnels which the bacteria<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> can eat.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Charcoal is a good adsorber of gas and<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> liquid simply because that is what it<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> does.Zeolite on the other hand, can have an<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> even higher surface are per gram and has a<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> propensity to entrap gases, most<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> particularly nitrogen in it's various forms<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> -- as gas -- ammonium for example -- and in<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> liquids as a salt of NO_3 .It actually draws<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> them in (like a magnet attracts ferric<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> objects) where charcoal just takes it as it<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> comes. It is easy to see also why<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> charcoal is so effective as a filter, but if<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> you have a solution rich in nitrogen, run it<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> through Zeolite and the N will be removed.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Add some to the litter in poultry grower<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> sheds, there will be fewer mortalities<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> because the ammonia which sometimes will<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> asphixiate small birds will be absorbed.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Zeolite will take N out of solution,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> charcoal will not. There's 40 natural<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> forms of Zeolite and more than another 150<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> can be synthesised, so choose carefully for<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> the one most appropriate to your problem. <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Zeolite can perform an amazing range of<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> actions. Once used and applied as<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> fertiliser, Zeolite subsequently will<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> release the N slowly and remain in the soil<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> as a balancer of N. Too much, it will take<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> it in (so that the soil pH is not lowered)<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> and release it as required.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Charcoal's great stuff though, it's easy to<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> make and holds answers to a lot of problems<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> - but not all !<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> David Murphy.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> _______________________________________________<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Gasification mailing list<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> to Send a Message to the list, use the email<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> address<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Gasification@bioenergylists.org<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> <mailto:Gasification@bioenergylists.org><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> use the web page<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> for more Gasifiers, News and Information<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> see our web site:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">-- <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Joe Barnas<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Portland, OR<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">541-525-1665<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">_______________________________________________<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Gasification mailing list<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Gasification@bioenergylists.org<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/<br></blockquote><br>-------------- next part --------------<br>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20131208/21827e0d/attachment-0001.html><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Subject: Digest Footer<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Gasification mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>Gasification@bioenergylists.org<br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org<br><br>for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site:<br>http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/<br><br><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>End of Gasification Digest, Vol 40, Issue 8<br>*******************************************<br><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>