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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hello Anand !<br>
<br>
I seem to recall, last time I was in Pune, when I was being shown
worm, composting and anaerobic digesting sites, the mention of the
name Karve. It's about 5 years ago now and my notes are in
Singapore so I can't be sure and my memory is a bit slippery.
Would that be right ? <br>
<br>
Clearly you are a far more full bottle on bacteria than I. It is
a topic on which I I have found it difficult to extract
information. My knowledge is much more of the broad brush variety
than the specifics of yours and I would welcome some reading on
the topic of soil benevolent bacteria. <br>
<br>
I guess in strict terms you are right about mineral solubility in
water but I can't see water releasing minerals from basalt or
granite at a rate that would support vigorous plant growth. I
wonder though, does this still apply in pure (say distilled)
neutral pH water ?). In my biofertilisers I use a little
molasses as a base ingredient. It acts as a dust binder but also
to stumulate bacterial activity in the soil.<br>
<br>
DJM.<br>
<br>
On 10/12/2013 4:24 PM, Anand Karve wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CACPy7SfX24WBU7-i1u7f_iGPtXUO5q=XWMF83Xar0+mwP+3acQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div>Dear David,</div>
<div>I agree with you that organic matter is essential to maintain
soil fertility. The organic matter causes the bacteria in the
soil to proliferate and it is the bacteria that make the soil
minerals available to the rest of the living beings. I reiterate
here that all minerals are water soluble, even basalt rock,
although to a very small extent. Even Quartz, if powdered and
stirred in water, would give a solution having silica
concentration of 5 PPM. Some other minerals may dissolve in
water to give solutions, having concentration measurable only in
PPB units, but the fact remains that all minerals dissolve in
water.
<div>The microbes have the capacity to take up minerals from
extremely dilute solutions (e.g. soil solution), because they
have special ports of entry for minerals all over their cell
surface. Therefore, in comparison to their cell volume, their
absorptive area is large. In the case of plants, it is only
the root hairs that serve as the absorptive organs. In
comparison to the volume of the plant, the surface area of the
root hairs is relatively small. <br>
All soils contain bacteria, irrespective of whether the soil
is acidic, alkaline, saline, glacial or anything else. Just
add a bit of sugar to the soil, and the bacterial population
jumps up by 500 to 1000 times the original, within about 24
hours. <b>Anand, I'm really interested in this population
expansion rate. I'm aware that some bacteria will double
every 20 minutes but I was of the belief that this was
restricted to a few and that in the main the rate of
increase was much slower.</b><b><small> </small></b> Sugar
does not contain any minerals, whereas bacteria have almost
15% minerals in their cells (as against only 5% in
plants, because plants have cellulose and lignin, which do not
have any minerals). The fact that sugar causes soil bacteria
to proliferate is an indirect proof, that soil bacteria can
take up minerals from the soil. Apart from calcium and
silica, the other minerals are present in living cells in very
small quantities. They serve mainly as components of
co-enzymes. The biochemistry of all living beings is similar
and therefore the minerals needed by the soil bacteria are the
same as what the plants and also what you and I need. </div>
</div>
<div>I have found in the course of my work that there are bacteria
even in soils that are deficient in certain minerals, and the
native bacteria in the soil will proliferate if the soil is
provided with sugar. The lateritic soil in our province is
notoriously deficient of phosphorus. When this soil was
incubated with sugar, one could detect only phosphate
solubilizing bacteria in it. This is easy to explain, because
these are the only bacteria that will survive in a phosphate
deficient soil. If the soil were deficient in Nitrogen, one
would have found in the soil only bacteria that fix atmospheric
nitrogen. </div>
<div>The microbes form food chains in the soil. For example the
bacteria are eaten by amoebae, the amoebae are eaten by flat
worms and free living nematodes<big> <b><small>(What about
earthworms ?)</small></b></big> they are in turn eaten by
arthropods and so on. At each step, the carbon content of these
organisms gets reduced, because the organisms are constantly
respiring. Along with the carbon, the organisms are losing a
corresponding amount of minerals, but when the minerals are
released from the cells and bodies of the living, they are no
longer in the form of original minerals but they are in the form
of water soluble organic molecules, which can be readily taken
up by plants. </div>
<div>Yours</div>
<div>A.D.Karve<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 8:21 AM, David
Murphy <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:djfmurphy@dodo.com.au" target="_blank">djfmurphy@dodo.com.au</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;PADDING-LEFT:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div><big>Anand, thanks for your comments. I answer
them in the text below.<br>
</big>
<div class="im"><br>
On 10/12/2013 12:13 PM, Anand Karve wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Dear David,</div>
<div>rock dust is certainly a good additive to soil, but
the ordinary soil in our fields is itself derived from
the rocks underneath the soil layer and therefore soil
contains more or less the same minerals that the rock
contains. <b> </b><big><b>Anand</b><b> that's not
quite correct and to explain what I mean would
require quite a deal of space. Soil is one
commiodity about which it is impossible to make
blanket statements.</b> </big>Secondly, you have
quoted that according to John D. Hamaker the microbes
produced enzymes which dissolved the minerals in the
rock dust. <big><b>That's not correct either. I
didn't credit JDH with that statement, it is a
biological fac</b><b>t</b></big><b>.</b> That is
true in the case of a few minerals which are in the
form of calcium salts. <big> </big> But water is a
universal solvent and all minerals are soluble in water
to a small extent. <big><b>Anand, any mineral is
soluble in water provided it is in a water soluble
form.</b><b> <big> </big></b><b><small><big>In
basalt - or any rock form - it is not water
soluble and you rely entirely on enzymes.</big>
</small></b> </big>They are taken up by the
microbes directly, because the microbes absorb them
through their entire cell surface, which is a more
efficient manner of absorption than the plants,<big> </big>which
absorb minerals only through their root hairs. <b><big>I'd
like to read more of this - can you give me a
credible reference please ? </big></b> The soil
solution represents a saturated solution of the
minerals. Therefore, any mineral molecule that is
removed from the solution by either plants or microbes,
gets replaced immediately from the pool of undissolved
minerals in the soil. This property is called dynamic
equilibrium. A 1 meter thick layer of soil has enough
minerals to allow you to conduct agriculture for about
25000 years. <b><big>Not in Australia and many other
countries !</big></b><b> </b><b><big>"Soils
ain't soils !". Australia, for example, missed
the last Ice Age and a 1 metre thick slice of our
soil won't keep your belly full for more than a
couple of birthdays. Australian soils are
deficient in most minerals and were almost entirely
leached of P. Australian topsoil averages around
12mm thick. For this reason our agricultural
productivity leapt ahead once we accessed the P in
guano from Christmas Island and then from Nauru.
Then we set up superphosphate manufacturing and the
rest in history. Australia is not unique.</big></b><b>
</b><b><big>But some areas here are quite mineral rich
and you can add rock dust as heavy and as aften as
you like and get no result, because it doesn't need
minerals. But most other areas do need it and you
differentiate through soil analysis.</big></b> <big><b>
Bu</b><b>t, all our soil and soils of the world
desperately need more Organic Matter.</b></big> <b>
<big>Our national average is under 1%, where 5% is a
desired minimum. <br>
</big></b></div>
</blockquote>
<big><b> For general interest</b></big><b><big> have a
look at <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://rfcarchives.org.au/Next/CaringForTrees/Remineralisation3-94.htm"
target="_blank">http://rfcarchives.org.au/Next/CaringForTrees/Remineralisation3-94.htm</a>
Got to go ! DJM.<br>
</big></b>
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Yours A.D.Karve<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 9:45
AM, David Murphy <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:djfmurphy@dodo.com.au"
target="_blank">djfmurphy@dodo.com.au</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px
solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;PADDING-LEFT:1ex"
class="gmail_quote">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div>Joe, you might find it of interest to look
up John D. Hamaker on the net. He was an
American Mechanical Engineer who turned his
mind (and subsequently devoted his life) to
improving soil by the addition of rock
dust. He saw global warming as a precursor
to the next ice age. He saw an ice age as
essential refurbishment of the earth's
resources. His argument has a lot of good
solid logioc to it and it's worth adding to
your store of knowledge on the general topic.
If he's proven right, then we're in a lot
of trouble ! If you want to study it
further I have a DVD I made from a tape he
produced I could let you have.<br>
<br>
Rock dust is a storehouse of minerals, all of
which are essential to growth. First to
plants and then to the animals which eat them
- including us humans. Rock dust is
insoluble to water but not to enzymes which
are produced by soil benevolent bacteria -
bacteria which are present in soil with good
OM and in compost. Many readers of this
string will be aware of it's benefits when
used as fertiliser.<br>
<br>
Seeking to remedy climate change purported to
be caused by anthropomorphic global warming is
an extraordinarily complex question. And
seeking to make a contribution by sequestering
carbon as charcoal is in itself another
complex range of issues. The charcoal must
be first ligneos carbon - wood - and it is
probably almost as good to lock up some of
that carbon in timber for building houses or
making furniture.<br>
<br>
I'd promote the first step by making the
sequestration of the carbon as part of a
broader program of building building soil
organic matter OM. This includes animate
carbon as well as vegetative. At least get
it up to 5% to plough depth, say 10 inches
(250mm) as a minimum, aiming at 20%. That in
itself locks away a lot of carbon, but of a
different nature, in that it's available to
contribute to plant growth, growth without the
need for chemical or artificial fertilisers.
<br>
<br>
Every 1% increase in soil OM (world wide)
would be a lockup of around 30 billion tonnes
of carbon in a world which generates now
(probably) 20 million tonnes annually. Just
for the record, the biggest emitter of CO2,
bigger than every other agency combined -
every factory, airplane, car truck tractor etc
and so on - is the soil of the earth as it
respires. So, the more land we put down
under crop to feed the increasing billions,
the more CO2 we produce and put into the
atmosphere. <br>
<br>
So, it's a race against a proven runner - so
called mother Nature - and she's a proven
stayer.<br>
<br>
On the other hand, some of the wise owls are
now saying it's not CO2 at all, but PCB's
causing the damage. Maybe they're right -
who knows <u>for sure ?</u> Nobody I'm
aware of despite what they say. It's all
conjecture, some of it soundly based, but
still conjecture relying on historical info
compiled over a geological blink.<br>
<br>
Using charcoal and zeolite together is a bit
like wearing belt & braces with
self-supporting trousers. It certainly
works !<br>
<br>
The easy and less costly way is to just get
the OM into the soil and plant stuff to grow
and suck up all the CO2 and N.<br>
<br>
But whatever you do, don't stop the good work.<span><font
color="#888888"><br>
<br>
David Murphy.</font></span>
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
On 08/12/2013 12:33 PM, Joe Barnas wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">DAVID,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thankyou for the insightful
overview of biochar and comparative
functionality of Zeolite, of which I
was not familiar. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>However one thing I am focused on
is how to address catastrophic global
climate change and for that having
billions of gardeners sequestering
carbon, while building healthy soil
and hence healthy food is not
something that Zeolite can provide.
It is another tool in growing food,
yes, but let's not lose sight of the
long term benefit of promoting
biochar. I might even try mixing some
with biochar just to gain the N
adsorption benefits.</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Dec 6,
2013 at 2:00 PM, David Murphy <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:djfmurphy@dodo.com.au"
target="_blank">djfmurphy@dodo.com.au</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#ccc
1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;PADDING-LEFT:1ex"
class="gmail_quote">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
text="#000000"><br>
<font face="Verdana">Greetings
Biochar/Gasifier people !</font><br>
<p class="MsoNormal"><big>Everybody
& his dog seems to have
something to say about
charcoal/biochar/biochar-compost
mix and so on.<span> Well,
h</span>ere’s another dog to
bark his piece ! <br>
</big></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><big>Biochar
is often seen as the great
agricultural panacea, but </big><big><u>it
is not</u></big><big>.</big><big><span>
</span></big><big>Biochar is a
name given to plain ordinary
charcoal to indicate that it
is destined for use in soil
improvement, but basically it
is still plain ordinary
charcoal, just crushed into
smaller particles. </big><big><span> </span></big><big>In
some circumstances it is a
very beneficial tool but it is
not magical as some proponents
seem to think. Just
remember, all charcoal has a
bio-origin - wood. <br>
</big></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><big>In some
Ag. trials in </big><big>Australia</big><big>
it significantly improved crop
volume (treble in one case)
but in other instances,
nothing worth writing home
about.</big><big><span> </span></big><big>It
depends on what the soil is
like to start with. <br>
</big></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><big>Charcoal
is stable.</big><big><span> </span></big><big>That
means it does not take part in
any composting system (which
is one primarily of bacterial
digestion) and it is
indigestible so that when
offered as a dietary
supplement (in poultry food
for example) it passes through
the digestive system
physically unchanged but will
adsorb a high proportion of
the gases and some toxins
produced in the process of
digestion, because that is
what charcoal does. For
this reason, it's adsorption
capability, poultry will
generally do better on a
little charcoal. <br>
</big></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><big>Quite a
few pages could be filled on
the beneficial services
provided by charcoal as it
travels through the digestive
system, but it does it as
charcoal only and as nothing
else. By all means use a
little in the feed, you can
only benefit. <br>
</big><br>
<big>The only physical way to
change the nature of charcoal
is to burn it. That is why
it lasts in soil (or wherever
it is) for thousands of years.</big></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><big>It has
an incredibly high surface
area of 360 m</big><big><sup>2
</sup></big><big>(varies) and
is a mass of minute tunnels
which in turn means a very
high volume and gases become
trapped in these tunnels.</big><big><span>
</span></big><big>It does not
</big><big><u>ab</u></big><big>sorb,
it </big><big><u>ad</u></big><big>sorbs
and traps only.</big><big><span>
</span></big><big>The
difference between absorb and
adsorb is the same as the
difference in liquids of
suspension and solution.</big><big><span>
</span></big><big>Clay
particles will be in
suspension, sugar and salt go
into solution. <br>
</big></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><big>Charcoal
is useful in an aerobic
composting system because
again of the entrapment of air
in the tunnels.</big><big><span>
</span></big><big>A composting
system goes well if there is
enough oxygen bearing air
available to the bacteria
which are a significant part
of the system.</big><big><span>
</span></big><big><span> </span></big><big>The
more air, the higher the
population of bacteria (other
factors being OK). </big><big><span> </span></big><big><span> </span></big><big>The
charcoal itself is
inoperative, and doesn’t
change, nor is it a catalyst,
it simply provides a service.
It will only provide a haven
for soil benevolent bacteria
if there is something trapped
in the tunnels which the
bacteria can eat. <br>
</big></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><big>Charcoal
is a good adsorber of gas and
liquid simply because that is
what it does.</big><big><span>
</span></big><big>Zeolite on
the other hand, can have an
even higher surface are per
gram and has a propensity to
entrap gases, most
particularly nitrogen in it’s
various forms – as gas –
ammonium for example – and in
liquids as a salt of NO</big><big><sub>3
</sub></big><big>.</big><big><span>
</span></big><big>It actually
draws them in (like a magnet
attracts ferric objects) where
charcoal just takes it as it
comes. It is easy to see
also why charcoal is so
effective as a filter, but if
you have a solution rich in
nitrogen, run it through
Zeolite and the N will be
removed. </big><big>Add some
to the litter in poultry
grower sheds, there will be
fewer mortalities because the
ammonia which sometimes will
asphixiate small birds will be
absorbed. Zeolite will take
N out of solution, charcoal
will not. There's 40
natural forms of Zeolite and
more than another 150 can be
synthesised, so choose
carefully for the one most
appropriate to your
problem. Zeolite can
perform an amazing range of
actions. Once used and
applied as fertiliser, Zeolite
subsequently will release the
N slowly and remain in the
soil as a balancer of N. Too
much, it will take it in (so
that the soil pH is not
lowered) and release it as
required.<br>
</big></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><big>Charcoal’s
great stuff though, it's easy
to make and holds answers to a
lot of problems - but not all
!</big></p>
<span><font color="#888888"><big>David
Murphy.</big> </font></span></div>
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