Dear Paul and all<div><br></div><div>Lignin is the "starch" that makes strong, but flexible (think cotton) into tall trees, transporting water hundreds of feet above our heads.  (But lignin is NOT not chemically related to starch, a sugar polymer).  </div>
<div><br></div><div>It is a very complex, three dimensional, organic substance with the approximate formula C10H12O3 ( but a lot of variation in different species).  There are lots of phenolic groups, probably accounting for the clean smell of wood smoke.  </div>
<div><br></div><div> FROM WIKIEDIA..</div><div><br></div><div><div class="kno-card" style="margin-left:24px"><li class="mod" style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;list-style:none;clear:none"><div class="kno-mrg-hnm _wC kno-mrg kno-swp" id="media_result_group" style="float:right;padding:0px;width:300px">
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<a class="ir_ivl5 bia uh_rl iu-img" id="N3fhHz61-gMT3M:" style="display:block;height:90px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-top:0px;width:125px"><img src="data:image/jpeg;base64,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</li></span></font></ul></div></div></div><div class="_af" style="padding:0px"><a class="fl" href="https://www.google.com/search?q=lignin&client=safari&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=fT72UtL3A4qEyAHatIHIDA&ved=0CEYQiR4" style="display:inline-block;padding:5px 8px 7px"><font color="#000000"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">More images</span></font></a></div>
</li></ol></div></li></div><div class="kno-card" style="margin-left:24px"><li class="mod" style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;list-style:none;clear:none"><div class="kno-fb-ctx _su" style="margin-bottom:12px;padding-top:18px">
<div class="kno-ecr-pt"><font><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Lignin</span></font></div></div></li></div><div class="kno-card" style="margin-left:24px"><li class="mod" style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;list-style:none;clear:none">
<div class="_On kno-fb-ctx" style="overflow:hidden;margin:10px 24px 0px 0px;padding-bottom:18px"><div class="kno-rdesc"><font><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Lignin or lignen is a complex polymer of aromatic alcohols known as monolignols. It is most commonly derived from wood, and is an integral part of the secondary cell walls of plants and some algae. </span></font><a class="fl q _eC" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lignin" style><span class="_dC" style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><font color="#000000">Wikipedia</font></span></a></div>
</div></li></div><div class="kno-card" style="margin-left:24px"><li class="mod" style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;list-style:none;clear:none"></li></div><div class="kno-card" style="margin-left:24px"><li class="mod" style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;list-style:none;clear:none">
<div class="_lt"><div class="_Lc kno-fb-ctx" style="margin:0px;border:none;padding:3px 0px 4px"><font><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><span class="_Sn vk_bk"><a class="fl" href="https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&hl=en&q=lignin+formula&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAGOovnz8BQMDgxkHnxCnfq6-gWGSsXmWlnp2spV-ckZqbmZxSVElhJWcmBOfnJ9bkF-al2KVll-UW5qT-ObHxlWzO7f8W38jou_si8TEDEEnNwDL1OCzUwAAAA&sa=X&ei=fT72UtL3A4qEyAHatIHIDA&ved=0CFUQ6BMoATAK" style>Formula</a>: </span><span class="vk_gy kno-fv">C9H10O2,C10H12O3,C11H14O4</span></span></font></div>
</div></li></div><div class="xpdxpnd" style="overflow:hidden;max-height:none;clear:both"><div class="kno-ftr" style="clear:both;overflow:hidden;padding:9px 24px"><div class="_YF kno-fb" style="float:right;margin-left:2em">
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</font></span></div><div class="_YF kno-fb" style="float:right;margin-left:2em"><span class="kno-fb-l" tabindex="0" style="outline:0px;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><font><br></font></span></div><div class="_YF kno-fb" style="float:right;margin-left:2em">
<span class="kno-fb-l" tabindex="0" style="outline:0px;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><font><br></font></span></div><div class="_YF kno-fb" style="float:right;margin-left:2em"><span class="kno-fb-l" tabindex="0" style="outline:0px;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><font><br>
</font></span></div><div class="_YF kno-fb" style="float:right;margin-left:2em"><span class="kno-fb-l" tabindex="0" style="outline:0px;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><font><br></font></span></div><div class="_YF kno-fb" style="float:right;margin-left:2em">
<span class="kno-fb-l" tabindex="0" style="outline:0px;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><font><br></font></span></div><div class="_YF kno-fb" style="float:right;margin-left:2em"><span class="kno-fb-l" tabindex="0" style="outline:0px;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><font><br>
</font></span></div><div class="_YF kno-fb" style="float:right;margin-left:2em"><span class="kno-fb-l" tabindex="0" style="outline:0px;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><font><br></font></span></div><div class="_YF kno-fb" style="float:right;margin-left:2em">
<span class="kno-fb-l" tabindex="0" style="outline:0px;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><font><br></font></span></div><div class="_YF kno-fb" style="float:right;margin-left:2em"><span class="kno-fb-l" tabindex="0" style="outline:0px;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><font><br>
</font></span></div><div class="_YF kno-fb" style="float:right;margin-left:2em"><span id="kno-fb-l5" class="kno-fb-l" tabindex="0" style="outline:0px;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><font>Feedback</font></span></div>
</div></div><br>When you walk in the woods, you often see brown logs that fall apart if you kick them.  The cellulose of the wood has been eaten by microorganiisms that convert it back to sugar, but they can't eat the lignin.  </div>
<div><br></div><div>Termites have special microorganiisms that do digest only lignin, and occasionally you will see white wood rot, the cellulose that the termites can't digest.  </div><div><br></div><div>Wouldn't you think all of this would have been figured out long ago and taught in HS chemistry classes? </div>
<div><br></div><div>To each his own.  Chacun a son gout!  </div><div><br></div><div>Tom</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>On Friday, February 7, 2014, Paul Anderson <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Tom,<br>
<br>
I (and many others, for sure) appreciate your explanations (below).<br>
<br>
One question:   The lignin is present as the celluloses are changed to gas.   And the lignin BECOMES char.   Please discuss that chemistry of lignin becoming char.   What is happening?<br>
<br>
Comment:  Looking at the gases that are coming out of TLUDs (that is, the gases BEFORE they get to any combustor), they appear to be (seem to be, give the impression of, possibly are) loaded with the stuff that would clog engines.  So I need a chemist's explanation of why those gases have advantages over those from the Imbert, etc.<br>

<br>
Still learning,<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD<br>
Email:  <a>psanders@ilstu.edu</a><br>
Skype: paultlud      Phone: +1-309-452-7072<br>
Website:  <a href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a><br>
<br>
On 2/7/2014 4:36 PM, Tom Reed wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Evan<br>
<br>
Good question, "Why do TLUDs (Toplit updraft combustors)  exclude hemicellulose and lignin?"  First, I think they do burn the hemicellulose along with the cellulose.  Maybe I should have said "celluloses".  (The hemicellulose is only a few % of wood! and is even more volatile than the cellulose. )<br>

<br>
You are correct.  The cellulose (and hemicellulose) become volatile at about 330C,<br>
<br>
     C6H10O5 + 1/2 O2 ===> 6 CO + 5 H2    Delta H = (2829 - 3080) -260 ENDOTHERMICl<br>
<br>
and generates the gas we see burning in the match (for instance).  The same temperature converts the lignin to charcoal, and if there is a choice between cellulose (in the next lower layer for TLUDS) and this charcoal, the flame moves to the cellulose gas from the next layer, leaving the charcoal behind, protected by the oxygen free gas left from cellulose combustion.<br>

<br>
The WWII (Imbert) gasifiers injected air below the unburned wood and above the charcoal as it formed.  This keeps the air in balance, since if too much charcoal was momentarily produced, more wood fell in front of the air nozzles and balance was restored.<br>

<><><><br>
<br>
Today we have an alternate use for the charcoal, Biochar, to improve soil fertility and reduce global warming, so by consuming only the celluloses, we produce ~ 20% charcoal from our wood supply. So the TLUD gasifier is a simple alternative to Imbert.  It also produces a gas that is easier to clean for engine use.<br>

<br>
It is surprising that, with all the dependence on wood burning for heat, this wasn't discovered centuries earlier.  If you make a vertical pile of fireplace logs and light ON TOP, they will burn down at a steady rate, the embers of each layer lighting the next layer, no matter how high the pile.<br>

<br>
Try it, and send comments.<br>
<br>
Tom Reed<br>
<br>
Dr. Thomas B Reed<br>
280 Hardwick Rd<br>
Barre, MA 01005<br>
508 353 7841<br>
<br>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On Feb 7, 2014, at 4:00 PM, Evan Marks <<a>yarmarks@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
A question to Tom Reed:<br>
<br>
Just wanted to get some clarity on the statment that TLUDs only burn cellulose. If we are contrasting for instance WWII sytems and TLUDs, and therefore limitation to only the cellulose fraction, is the primary difference temperature? Why do TLUDs exclude hemicellulose and lignin? Is the cellulose fraction equivalent to the volatile fraction?<br>

<br>
Thanks, -EM<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear Tom Miles and all<br>
<br>
WWII gasification converted all the fuel into a low quality (150Btu/scf) gas that required considerable cleanup. Before use in engines.<br>
<br>
Now that we recognize the value of biochar as<br>
<br>
O. A soil amendment<br>
<br>
O. Reducing global warming<br>
<br>
a second option is more attractive.<br>
<br>
In the TLUD stove and larger (eg 33 gal garbage can) only the cellulose burns, giving a cleaner gas<br>
<br>
C6H10O5 + 1/2 O2 ===><br>
6O +  5 H2<br>
<br>
Plus. biochar for addition to the soil.<br>
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