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<DIV>Kelly,</DIV>
<DIV>I guess you have sent this Email. to the wrong recipient,</DIV>
<DIV>My original Email seems to have been removed from this thread by some
one?</DIV>
<DIV>I have repeated my contribution below:</DIV>
<DIV>Technically, it is possible to salvage a considerable portion of the
waste heat which is normally discarded by any I.C.Engine to assist in
the production of methane from hot CO2 in the presence of biomass or any
other hydro carbon, The extra input of energy to assist the reaction can be in
the form of an electrical plasma which could be obtained from say a 100amp
automotive alternator. There are other issues such as N2 removal from the fuel
loop. This is the way it will go.</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Sabatier reaction<BR>From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia<BR>The Sabatier
reaction or Sabatier process was discovered by the French chemist Paul Sabatier
in the 1910s. It involves the reaction of hydrogen with carbon dioxide at
elevated temperatures (optimally 300–400 °C) and pressures in the presence of a
nickel catalyst to produce methane and water. Optionally, ruthenium on alumina
(aluminum oxide) makes a more efficient catalyst. It is described by the
following exothermic reaction:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>CO2 + 4 H2 + energy → CH4 + 2 H2O<BR>∆H = −165.0 kJ/mol<BR>(some initial
energy/heat is required to start the reaction)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>GFWHELL<BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 5/17/2014 11:16:42 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
kburnham@protonpowerbioenergy.com writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<P dir=ltr>Not sure if I'm replying to Mark or Art here...</P>
<P dir=ltr>We use electric resistance heaters to operate around 1000 C.</P>
<P dir=ltr>Kelly</P>
<DIV
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class="gmail_quot<blockquote class=">
<DIV lang=EN-US link="blue" vlink="purple">
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> Gasification
[mailto:<A title=mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>] <B>On Behalf
Of </B>Art Krenzel<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, May 16, 2014 7:50 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[Gasification] Tennessee company - pyrolysis biochar + hydrogen ($1.75 per
gallon diesel-equivalent?)<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Kelly,<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Thank you
for joining the discussion.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Two
additional quick questions - since it is a pyrolysis process without oxygen or
air, how do you generate the heat for the pyrolysis process? What
temperature does the system operate at in the horizontal
mixer?<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">I look forward to your reply and
am sure many others on the list will have more questions regarding your
process as well.<BR><BR>Art Krenzel, P.E.<BR>PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES<BR>10505 NE
285th Street<BR>Battle Ground, WA 98604<BR> <BR><A title=tel:360-666-1883
href="tel:360-666-1883" target=_blank
value="+13606661883">360-666-1883</A>
voice<BR><BR><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
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<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Date: Thu, 15 May 2014 22:38:02
-0700<BR>From: <A title=mailto:kburnham@protonpowerbioenergy.com
href="mailto:kburnham@protonpowerbioenergy.com"
target=_blank>kburnham@protonpowerbioenergy.com</A><BR>To: <A
title=mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR>Subject: Re:
[Gasification] Tennessee company - pyrolysis biochar + hydrogen ($1.75 per
gallon diesel-equivalent?)<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Hello
All,<BR>Kelly Burnham with Proton Power here. I'd be glad to contribute
where I can, and in response to Art's questions:<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">'what
type of biomass', we've tested over 50 different types of biomass. By
and large most woody or herbaceous biomass works fine up to about 45% MC.
<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">'gasification style' is hydrous
pyrolysis. No pure oxygen and no oxidization agents. Slight positive pressure
at discharge. Horizontal anger.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Hope this
helps.<BR>Kelly B.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">On May
15, 2014 10:29 AM, "Tom Miles" <<A title=mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com
href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com" target=_blank>tmiles@trmiles.com</A>>
wrote:<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
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<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">All,</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I
have invited Dr. Sam Weaver and Kelly Burnham of Proton Power, to join this
discussion so that you can answer your questions directly or they can
respond to your previous questions. To review the thread to date see
the archives at <A
title=http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org/2014-May/date.html
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org/2014-May/date.html"
target=_blank>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org/2014-May/date.html</A></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Visit
the Proton Power website at <A title=http://www.protonpower.com/
href="http://www.protonpower.com/"
target=_blank>http://www.protonpower.com/</A></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">After
several years of development Proton Power is working through their
first year of a 750 kWe scale up plant at Wampler’s Farm Sausage in Lenoir,
Tennessee.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><A
title=http://www.protonpower.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Wamplers-Case-Study.pdf
href="http://www.protonpower.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Wamplers-Case-Study.pdf"
target=_blank>http://www.protonpower.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Wamplers-Case-Study.pdf</A></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Tom
Miles</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">T
R Miles Technical Consultants Inc.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Portland,
OR</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><A
title=mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com"
target=_blank>tmiles@trmiles.com</A></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><A
title=http://www.trmiles.com/ href="http://www.trmiles.com/"
target=_blank>www.trmiles.com</A></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><A
title=http://www.gasifiiers.bioenergylists.org/
href="http://www.gasifiiers.bioenergylists.org/"
target=_blank>www.gasifiiers.bioenergylists.org</A></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><A
name=14608d6814975b01_14600eeae6fee327__MailEndCompose><SPAN
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<DIV>
<DIV
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Gasification
[mailto:<A title=mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>] <B>On
Behalf Of </B>Art Krenzel<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 14, 2014 11:47
PM<BR><B>To:</B> Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and
gasification<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Gasification] Tennessee company -
pyrolysis biochar + hydrogen ($1.75 per gallon
diesel-equivalent?)</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Rex,<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">It is
always good to hear from you again. I can always count on you to come
up with better, faster and cheaper ways to get things done. $2/kg is
considerably different than $12/kg for hydrogen
costs.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">What
biomass feedstock and gasification style does PROTON POWER use to produce
such high hydrogen content syn gas? I notice no nitrogen content in
the syn gas so I presume they are using pure oxygen as the oxidizing agent.
Is it pressurized as well? I see the photo on their website
shows a horizontal "pug mill" style mixer which I assume is their gasifier
as well.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Good to hear from you
again.<BR><BR>Art <BR><BR> <BR><BR><BR><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">>
From: <A title=mailto:rex@whitfieldfarm.co.za
href="mailto:rex@whitfieldfarm.co.za"
target=_blank>rex@whitfieldfarm.co.za</A><BR>> To: <A
title=mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR>> Date: Thu,
15 May 2014 07:59:13 +0200<BR>> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Tennessee
company - pyrolysis biochar + hydrogen ($1.75 per gallon
diesel-equivalent?)<BR>> <BR>> Art,<BR>> <BR>> You are correct
about making hydrogen from methane particularly at the<BR>> $4/MMBTU
level seen in the USA. However, this is only strictly true on large<BR>>
scale. At small scale gasification is an order of magnitude cheaper
than<BR>> steam methane reforming. When I made enquiries about a small
(75bpd)<BR>> hydrotreater, I was given a rough cost of $10m with a
further approximately<BR>> $8m for the SMR. Needless to say, I nearly
fell off my chair! Some of the<BR>> issues were that the design of a
hydrogen plant is by its very nature<BR>> expensive. Then there are
materials of construction - stainless steel. Then<BR>> there are the
safety aspects that require as much instrumentation as a 2000<BR>> bpd
plant. One comment I got was "do they make hydrogen compressors that<BR>>
small?".<BR>> <BR>> Proton Power claim to have a process that produces
65% H2, 30% CO2 and 5% CO<BR>> starting at the 250kWe scale. It is a very
small step from there via<BR>> pressure swing absorption to get 99.9%
hydrogen. PSA equipment does exist at<BR>> small scale and they have the
compressors for compressing syngas. This<BR>> should produce hydrogen at
the $2/kg level rather than the methane SMR route<BR>> of $12/kg.<BR>>
<BR>> Kind regards<BR>> Rex <BR>> <BR>> Dr. Karve,<BR>>
<BR>> Being able to technically generate hydrogen using incandescent
carbon in a<BR>> water gas reaction does not make the process
economically competitive.<BR>> Typically, the use of incandescent
carbon is a batch, cyclic process which<BR>> produces pulses of gases
which vary in purity over each cycle<BR>> <BR>> Compare the economics
of using a batch feedstock which has a variable<BR>> composition to one
which has a very pure, low cost feedstock (CH4) day in<BR>> and day out.
As a process designer, you can readily see that even through<BR>>
the chemistry works out to generate hydrogen using incandescent carbon,
the<BR>> day to day practicality of operating a multistage process with
such a<BR>> variable feedstock is much more difficult and more
expensive.<BR>> <BR>> Art,<BR>> <BR>> You make a very valid
point, particularly on large scale equipment. However,<BR>> down at small
scale, you cannot beat the competitiveness of gasification as<BR>> a
hydrogen producer. It is an order of magnitude less than going the
SMR<BR>> route using methane. <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
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