<div style="font-family:arial;color:black;font-size:10pt;"><span style="display:inline-block" contenteditable="false"></span></div>
<div> <font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000" face="arial"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;">James, </span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000" face="arial"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>We have had extensive testing done or dioxins on MSW/RDF gasification and in the critical critical areas, did not have detectable levels. The third party work was done by Los Alamos National Labs, San Diego's consortium of waste management, Sandia National Laboratories and Radian, the same technician/engineer for Radian that prepared an exhaustive analysis for DOE that was the technical basis for US EPA to try to get refinery waste gasification exempted from RCRA, but hasn't happened yet. </span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000" face="arial"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>A technical evaluation of gasification shows that without oxygen the basic reaction of Cl+O2->ClO2 doesn't occur and hydrogen will strip the O2 from chlorine compounds already formed, preventing he dioxin formation and breaking down any dioxins introduced to the system. This has been discussed here before. </span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000" face="arial"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span> A GC cannot be used for metal analysis, at least none of the ones I have been exposed to. </span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000" face="arial"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Not using a qualified technician may allow the regulators to throw out the results. </span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000" face="arial"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span> </span></font></div>
<div style="font-family:arial;color:black;font-size:10pt;clear:both;"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial">Sincerely,</font><br>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Comic Sans MS', sans-serif">Leland T. "Tom" Taylor</font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thermogenics Inc. </font></div>
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-----Original Message-----<br>
From: James Joyce <james@jamesjoyce.com.au><br>
To: gasification <gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>
Sent: Sun, Jun 29, 2014 2:49 am<br>
Subject: Re: [Gasification] Dioxins ...was Clean air ..<br>
<br>
<br>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_0_ea76234f-297a-4f5a-a3bc-73b9fc8f7ff9" style="margin: 0px;font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, Sans-Serif;font-size: 12px;color: #000;background-color: #fff;"> <br>
<br>
<pre style="font-size: 9pt;"><tt>Leland, regarding costs. I have had two scenarios described to me, one where the <br>
sample device is provided and I take the sample (therefore up to me to make that <br>
representative) and one where a technician comes in to collect the sample. I <br>
believe the $3000 applies to the first case ... ie. sampling is an additional <br>
cost. <br>
<br>
If you are referring to on-line or at-line GS-MS or Gel chromatography I am <br>
interested to hear about experiences with these techniques. Our plant operators <br>
are not qualified instrument techs or lab techs ... which means at best the <br>
devices would get a check over on a monthly basis during scheduled plant visits. <br>
<br>
My interest in the bag filter was with respect to particulates. This relates to <br>
dioxin in that they tend to be adsorbed onto the particulates (although perhaps <br>
more so at <300 deg C than 600 deg C), so it is one way to remove dioxins and <br>
their precursors if they are present. Some plants I understand actually inject <br>
fine carbon into their flue gas for this very purpose. <br>
<br>
Kevin, on your comments about Chlorine and copper, I have been maintaining a <br>
watching brief for some time on the topic and from what I understand Chlorine <br>
levels are in fact poorly correlated with Dioxin emissions, arguably because the <br>
chlorine levels in most feedstocks, even at ppm levels are many many times the <br>
quantity needed to make the tiny amounts of Dioxins that regulators are checking <br>
for. I read a very good review of the science just last week. If anyone wants <br>
the reference I could dig it out next week. The review of a looked critically at <br>
a variety of data on Dioxin formation and control. My interpretation of the <br>
their conclusions is that Dioxin emissions from pyrolysis, gasification and <br>
combustion processes are: <br>
<br>
(a) Very poorly correlated with Chlorine levels, with the exception of a few <br>
industrial chemicals (not biomass) <br>
<br>
(b) Strongly correlated to completion of combustion and the residence time of <br>
flue gases between 200 - 400 deg C (the desired residence times in this range <br>
were less than 1.6 seconds ...which perhaps does not bode well for torrefaction <br>
! ... and hot running electrostatic precipitators) <br>
<br>
(c) Catalysed by copper and copper compounds .. which in turn are inhibited by <br>
the presence of sulphur. <br>
<br>
(d) Sometimes dictated by the dioxin content of the incoming feedstock rather <br>
than formation in the process <br>
<br>
If anyone has done Dioxin measurements on flue gases from thermal processing of <br>
biomass I certainly would be interested in their experiences. <br>
<br>
Regards, <br>
<br>
James <br>
<br>
------------------------------ <br>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2014 05:50:23 -0400 (EDT) <br>
From: <a href="mailto:linvent@aol.com">linvent@aol.com</a> <br>
To: <a href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org</a> <br>
Subject: Re: [Gasification] Clean Air Regulation requirements imposed <br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:8D160CD84083CAD-2D78-1FDBC@webmail-m285.sysops.aol.com">8D160CD84083CAD-2D78-1FDBC@webmail-m285.sysops.aol.com</a>> <br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" <br>
<br>
James, <br>
The price you stated for a dioxin test is just the analysis and does not <br>
include the technician's travel time, set up time and sampling time, per US <br>
costs.? <br>
There is a method of on-stream continuous measurement that will give analysis <br>
of all of the compounds presented in the standard you referenced that will also <br>
include fixed gases to almost any molecular weight.? <br>
I can't see how any bag or filter can be used to clean the gas.? <br>
<br>
Sincerely, <br>
Leland T. "Tom" Taylor <br>
Thermogenics Inc.? <br>
<br>
<br>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2014 09:22:55 -0300 <br>
From: "Kevin" <<a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>> <br>
To: "Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification" <br>
<<a href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org">gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>> <br>
Subject: Re: [Gasification] Clean Air Regulation requirements imposed <br>
Message-ID: <CE1F1C69726943FCAC3E73C36F829823@usera594fda0bf> <br>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; <br>
reply-type=original <br>
<br>
Dear James <br>
<br>
It is my understanding that if Chlorine is present in a "biomass pyrolysis <br>
situation", the presence of dioxins is virtually guaranteed. <br>
<br>
For example, if yak or cattle dung, chicken or feedlot manure, or salt water <br>
driftwood are pyrolysed or partially burned, there will be dioxins in the <br>
resulting pyrolysis gases or smoke. <br>
<br>
QUANTITATIVE testing for dioxins could be very expensive, as you suggest. <br>
However, QUALITATIVE testing can be very low cost. Simply heat a copper wire <br>
red hot in the presence of the gas being tested for dioxins, when chlorine <br>
gas or chlorofluorocarbon refrigerants are known to be absent. If dioxins <br>
are present, the flame turns green or blue-green. <br>
<br>
Best wishes, <br>
<br>
Kevin <br>
<br>
<br>
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