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<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><big>Anand, you have aritten that your
statements are based on assumptions, and as a man of science you
will appreciate the inherent dangers. There is an element of
truth in each but the balance is not correct. Some statements
are confused by the following sentence, for example</big> <big>"</big>they
need oxygen for their metabolism, which they cannot take from the
air because of the anaerobic conditions inside the gut. Therefore
they take oxygen from their substrate<big>". </big> <big>Worms
cannot take oxygen from the air because they're underground, and
so, as you state, they take it from the substrate, through their
skin.
The anaerobic condition of the gut is irrelevant to their
respiration and metabolism.</big><br>
<br>
<big>If casts are found to be rich in iron, it is because the soil
is rich in iron. No other reason.</big> <big> Your comments
about cattle dung hold good and worms will attack this with
gusto - but not because the dung itself is so appetising but
becaause of the high levels of bacteria enjoying life there -
and they indeed <i>are</i> appetising. But what goes on in an
earthworm's gut is incredibly complex and it would not be
difficult to fill a hundred pages on the topic - but for what
purpose ?</big> <big> There would be little there supporting
your assumptions though.</big><br>
<br>
<big>Your final sentence that the soil in a forest emits methane
is a nonsense. Think about it, how would trees survive with
their roots in an anaerobic environment. If you indeed do have
a paper proclaimng that circumstance as fact, then I would first
investigate the bona fides of the author and then, I would use
the paper in a more practical anaerobic application.</big><br>
<br>
<big>DJM.</big><br>
<br>
On 02/10/2014 4:18 PM, Anand Karve wrote:<br>
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cite="mid:CACPy7SfBzf3u0HWm2zPBbZmPh7Jbdkp=5B+J1oM3jwf+Bf9kAg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Dear David,
the environment inside the guts of all animals is anaerobic and therefore all animals (including human beings) are living biogas plants. In India, cattle dung is added as a rule to the compost pit in which earthworms are used for making compost. In fact, it is considered to be essential. Cattle dung is a well known source of
methanogens and it is regularly used as inoculum when one starts a newly installed biogas plant. There is no doubt that the earthworms feed on the bacteria in the soil, but the digestive juices of the earthworms are mixed with the ingested soil so that the bacteria in the soil are digested. The soil bacteria are mostly aerobic. The bacteria in the guts of animals (including earthworms) are either facultative anaerobes or exclusively anaerobic (like the methanogens). One must assume that the bacteria in the guts of earthworms get mixed with the ingested soil. Being living beings they need oxygen for their metabolism, which they cannot take from the air because of the anaerobic conditions inside the gut. Therefore they take oxygen from their substrate. That is why the methanogens convert carbohydrates into a hydrocarbon (methane), trivalent iron into divalent iron, sulphate into sulphides and nitrates into ammonia. Because it was reported to me that the casts of earthworms had
unusual
ly high iron content, and because it is not possible for the worms to make iron out
of non-ferrous material, I just offere d an explanation, which was based on my knowledge of biogas technology. Incidentally, converting trivalent iron into divalent iron is good for the plants, because plants can take up iron only in the divalent form.I once again emphasize here that I am not an expert of earthworms, but I do claim to be a biologist. I definitely remember having read that methane is continuosly generated by soils in a forest. If I find the relevant paper, I shall send the reference to the list.
Yours
A.D.Karve
On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 10:49 AM, David Murphy <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:djfmurphy@dodo.com.au"><djfmurphy@dodo.com.au></a> wrote:
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">Gentlemen, I've seen these posts about earthworms and finally feel the need
to comment.
I thought the last person to publish material prejudicial to earthworms was
Ewald Wolny (1846-1901) but he was shown to be wrong by Charles Darwin.
Wolny was man enough to acknowledge his errors and I have always applauded
him for this.
But then, over 120 years later, the state of Minnesota takes up the cudgels
! The original post about the attitude of Minnesota to Amynthas agrestis
simply displayed the fact that because a person may be well qualified in one
discipline, it doesn't mean he's qualified in another. Here I refer to
the person who drafted the Minnesota paper on "Crazy worms" and how damaging
to soils they were. What nonsense ! One of the world's greatest
authorities on earthworms (and there are few of these) is Prof Clive Edwards
and last I heard he was at Ohio State Uni, head of the Entimology Dept. A
phone call from Minnesota would have saved them from publishing such
rubbish. "Invasive earthworms" indeed ! J.M Stockdill of the New Zealand
Dept. of Primary Industry demonstrated that by transplanting (invasive)
earthworms into pasture, that productivity of that pasture was permanently
raised by 25% with no other action taken. Then, Anand Karve joins in !
I've heard of earthworms being called Bioreactors, but never biogas plants.
Bioreators was a name conferred on them by Dr. Uday Bhawalkar of the
Bhawalkar Earthworm Reasearch Institute, Pune, India. Most of the matter
taken in by earthwoms in their search for food, passes through their gut
unchanged and this is particularly so for metals. The preferred food for
worms (both compost and earth) is bacteria, with yeasts and asssociated soil
life second. In seeking the bacteria, worms are forced to take in parent
food to which the bacteria have attached themselves. J.N.Parle (circa
1939) found that some worms could absorb metals up to a particular level and
then the accumulation ceased. However, no chemical or physical reaction
takes place in any metals passing through the worm's gut and gas being
produced by earthworms is unknown. Castings produced are aerobic on the
outside but the inside anaerobic. The anaerobic portion would indeed
produce some gas but to my knowledge this has not been measured.
Some products such as antibiotics were once credited to worms but this was
found to be not so, and it was the bacteria fostered in the gut which was
responsible for the antibiotics. It's an interesting symbiosis, that
while worms create an environment in their gut in which bacteria thrive, the
host worm also consumes bacteria as food.
This, and a whole lot of other stuff, is all in my latest book on the topic,
Organic Growing with Worms.
David Murphy
On 01/10/2014 1:37 PM, Anand Karve wrote:
Dear Mark,
I am not an earthworm specialist. I started thinking about earthworms
only when it was reported that the casts of earthworms had an
unusually high iron content. It was then I realised that the guts of
earthworms acted as miniature biogas plants. I would therefore assume
that the microbes in the guts of earthworms converted nitrates into
ammonia, sulphates into H2S, and cellulose (i.e. carbohydrates) into
methane. There might be other chemicals formed by reducing oxidised
minerals i (e.g. silicates) nto their reduced forms, but I am ignorant
of them.
Yours
A.D.Karve
On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 11:23 PM, Mark Elliott Ludlow <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mark@ludlow.com"><mark@ludlow.com></a>
wrote:
Dr. Karve,
Do you have a list of those positive effects attributable to earth worms,
particularly those in the biochemical transformational mode?
Thanks, kindly,
Best, Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Gasification [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:gasification-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>] On
Behalf Of Anand Karve
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2014 9:58 PM
To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
Subject: Re: [Gasification] Forest Duff & Earthworms - Off Topic ?
Dear Jeff,
one of the points that is missed in most discussions on earthworms is the
fact that earthworms are miniature biogas plants. Ms Hemangi Jambhekar, a
lady selling earthworm compost as a business, told me that earthworm casts
had unusually high iron content. The soil in our area is rich in iron, but
the iron, being Fe2O3(ferric oxide) is not soluble in water and therefore
soil analysis shows our soils to be poor in iron. When this soil passes
through the gut of an earthworm, the anaerobic micro-organisms in the gut
take a part of the oxygen from the Fe2O3 for their own metabolism and
convert the Fe2O3 into FeO(ferrous oxide), which is water soluble.
Similarly, the casts of worms contain many other organic and inorganic
components of the soil in their reduced form. The reduced compounds serve
the soil microbes as food, because they can oxidise them to obtain energy
for their own metabolism. This causes an increase in the population density
of soil microbes. It is a universally accepted fact that the population
density of soil microbes is positively correlated to soil fertility.
Yours
A.D.Karve
On Sun, Sep 28, 2014 at 10:29 PM, Jeff Davis <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jeffdavis0124@gmail.com"><jeffdavis0124@gmail.com></a>
wrote:
Kind of off topic:
Aren't earthworms good for soil and gardens?
It depends. Earthworms create a soil of a certain consistency. For
soils that are compacted due to heavy use by agriculture and
urbanization, for example, earthworm tunnels can create "macro-pores"
to aid the movement of water through the soil. They also help
incorporate organic matter into the mineral soil to make more
nutrients available to plants. However, in agricultural settings
earthworms can also have harmful effects. For instance, their castings
(worm excrement) can increase erosion along irrigation ditches. In the
urban setting, earthworm burrows can cause lumpy lawns.
Relative to simplified ecosystems such as agricultural and
urban/suburban soils, earthworm-free hardwood forests in Minnesota
have a naturally loose soil with a thick duff layer. Most of our
native hardwood forest tree seedlings, wildflowers, and ferns grow
best in these conditions. However, when earthworms invade they
actually increase the compaction of hardwood forest soils. Compaction
decreases water infiltration. Less infiltration combined with the
removal of the duff and fallen tree leaves results in increased surface
runoff and erosion.
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/invasives/terrestrialanimals/earthworms/index.html"><http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/invasives/terrestrialanimals/earthworms/in
dex.html></a>
Jeff
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--
***
Dr. A.D. Karve
Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
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<pre wrap="">
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