[Greenbuilding] Vacuum insulated panels -- case studies

Wed Feb 2 16:24:04 CST 2011

Two studies of VIP panels. They probably don't make sense for single family homes; I'm not sure how relevant to this listserv. The first case study has pictures of panels being installed between what look like they might be 1/2" x 1" studs. 

My experience was with the renovation of a six story steel building in Manhattan built in 1965 and used by a program I belong to. It has uninsulated block walls with plaster applied to the inside of the block. We were planning replacement of a 150 ton heating and cooling plant. I'd argued that it would be better to make thermal improvements to the building in order to rightsize, install the smallest possible plant, which would save on first cost and operating expense over the system's projected twenty to thirty year lifetime. Since the block and plaster walls didn't have a hollow cavity to pump insulation into the choices were: a) fir out a 4" to 8" cavity to pump insulation into with studs against the existing inner walls, which would have meant losing space around the edge of each floor; b) glue VIP panels to the walls and lose less space; or c) don't insulate, buy a big heating and cooling plant.

New building in Munich
http://www.va-q-tec.com/muenchen_en,20210.html
Building Physics Award 2005 & German Energy Efficiency Award 2009
The new building is located in a prominent area in Munich. In the centre of Munich for example in the Seitz street, the property value per m² is expensive and the space is limited. So a conventional insulation thickness of 25-30 cm is not economically reasonable for a low-energy building. A conventional insulation of 25 cm would take 125 m² more space in a building like this, that equals 10% of the useable area in the building. That's why vacuum insulation panels of the va-Q-tec AG have been attached to the external walls. 

That was the first time vacuum insulation panels were used in a big building. By the application of 2 cm VIP and 8 cm protection and covering material, it was possible to reach the insulation values of the passive house, without the loss of valuable living area.

Existing chapel building in Edinburgh
http://www.va-q-tec.com/edinburgh_en,20211.html

________________________________________
From: greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org [greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] on behalf of greenbuilding-request at lists.bioenergylists.org [greenbuilding-request at lists.bioenergylists.org]
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Subject: Greenbuilding Digest, Vol 5, Issue 33

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Solutions (to the ecological problem) (JOHN SALMEN)
   2. Re: Solutions (to the ecological problem) (Gennaro Brooks-Church)
   3. Re: our solution to the ecological problem (Clarke Olsen)
   4. Re: Steam Shower? (Stewart Abbey)
   5. Re: Nansulate insulation (Lawrence Lile)
   6. Insulated SHipping Container (Lawrence Lile)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 13:23:55 -0800
From: "JOHN SALMEN" <terrain at shaw.ca>
To: "'Green Building'" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Solutions (to the ecological problem)
Message-ID: <366427C4C95047E18171479D3A883E41 at JOHN>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

There was a pretty serious social framework (pun intended) for that activity
and a lot of rules and complexity (think potlatch for complexity of a social
economic structure that is beyond figuring out). There have also been
similar (non-building) related cooperative efforts in communities - mostly
immigrant communities to NA.  Compensation takes many forms and much of what
we still do in a community is not directly related to payment. Nobody pays
me to drive safely or give up my seat on a bus.

As 2nd generation in my early fifties I've had the pleasure of being able to
talk to the generation that settled farms in Canada - though we are now 4
generations from that time. I've also been able to talk to people that
participated in the first garment industry strike in NYC and the subsequent
development of labour laws and unions.

In the Canadian prairies for example the communities that formed around
farming were pretty impoverished by today's standards and a 'single family
unit' had little chance to survive. The only time for building was in the
winter after the fields were put to rest and it was a limited timeframe and
more than one person or family could accomplish (though many did try). The
communities were primarily European with village origins and well used to
working within a community framework. Farms needed markets for livestock and
grain which required everyone to have the capability to produce to create
enough resource to elicit a market for transportation and supply. Given the
limited timeframe for building it required planning and community effort
that everyone profited from. This extended to the construction of community
stock pens, graineries, etc. as well as co-operative financing. For Canada
this was the birth of the co-operative movement which continues in the form
of financial banking, gasoline and even grocery stores. As communities
became marginally wealthier barn raising evolved into co-operative financing
(as farm communities still did not have the wealth to attract other forms of
financing) and people hired each other and paid fairly.

I have volunteered time for many things and have donated a lot of design and
physical work time to social housing projects. There are always needs in a
community for which there is inadequate funding. An example from me is
creating a house (group home) working with a parent group of children with
special needs.  That was a form of barn raising.

I think what worries me is the types of sentiment that can be used to
exploit. Even the concept of 'home' or 'green home' can sentimentally
inspire people to create a building that has no relationship to their needs
just to fill some empty hole. As I mentioned before we occupy a house on
average for 11 hours (8.5 of which are spent sleeping). Our homes are
equally (and predominantly for our conscious time) the workplaces and
schools we occupy, the transportation we use.

Individual homes are not an 'old' or 'timeless' concept - even in western
culture it is relatively new. It wasn't that long ago that people of
European origin we were all sleeping in some big room together (and most
other cultures). Isolating a few people in a green building and then
inviting each other over to paint the place is not community building in my
mind though it can be a nice shared activity - I would prefer making dinner.
Spending time together working on social co-operative or cohousing solutions
gets a little better.

My thoughts - but like I said too many issues

JOHN SALMEN ENVIRONMENTAL DESIGN

4465 UPHILL RD,. DUNCAN, B.C.  CANADA, V9L 6M7

PH 250 748 7672 FAX 250 748 7612 CELL 250 246 8541

terrain at shaw.ca

  _____

From: greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
[mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of natural
building
Sent: January 23, 2011 11:55 AM
To: Green Building
Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Solutions (to the ecological problem)

On 23-Jan-11, at 11:40 AM, JOHN SALMEN wrote:

Similarly if I hire or train people for a building project that labour is
part of the cost of that project and if the project cannot afford it then
that project has no value in the community.

John, what are your thoughts on the very old and very community-oriented
practice of barn-raising, where every able-bodied member of the community
helped out without expectation of any compensation other that refreshments
and, perhaps, reciprocal help when it came time to build their own barn?

Regards,

Steve Satow

www.naturalbuildingsite.net

naturalbuilding at shaw.ca

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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 17:12:44 -0500
From: Gennaro Brooks-Church <info at ecobrooklyn.com>
To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Solutions (to the ecological problem)
Message-ID:
        <AANLkTincvZWvCLhtz_G6WZdKkwS6x4zWbAs3BLMoCQAi at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

I don't invite my friends over to paint my house. I only offer that as an
example of an alternative to our current system. I do think we need to tie
green building and culture more closely. Currently the definition of green
builder is very broadly somebody who builds houses out of ecological and
efficient materials. The social implications of that building, sourcing, and
maintenance are secondary if considered at all.

That definition is valid and important but as somebody who wants to make
a substantial impact on improving the environment and our life I don't think
that definition will provide the greatest impact.

I venture to say that the definition of a green builder should be more life
centered and less object centered. A good example of this is the way Native
Americans built, which was more about their religion than about the
materials they used - their home aligning with the four corners of the earth
etc.

A life centered green builder is primarily concerned with the social and
ethical implications of their building. Efficiency and product choices
certainly play a huge part but that follows their primary concern of
building community and emotional connection with nature through the
structure, how it is built, sourced and maintained.

Looking at building from this humanistic perspective first and foremost in
my opinion has more impact on achieving our goals of a healthier planet.
Certainly there is a time in the process to get lost in the numbers and BTUs
but that is a small part of the larger vision.

Exploring our connection to past building techniques, cultures, and
materials keeps us connected to the ongoing process of living. Our couple
hundred years of scientific building is a drop in the bucket considering we
have been building for thousands of years. To loose that perspective of us
being in a time continuum guarantees our isolation from the world, a wold
that is deeply connected to cycles.

Gennaro Brooks-Church

Cell: 1 347 244 3016 USA
www.EcoBrooklyn.com
22 2nd St; Brooklyn, NY 11231

On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 4:23 PM, JOHN SALMEN <terrain at shaw.ca> wrote:

>  There was a pretty serious social framework (pun intended) for that
> activity and a lot of rules and complexity (think potlatch for complexity of
> a social economic structure that is beyond figuring out). There have also
> been similar (non-building) related cooperative efforts in communities ?
> mostly immigrant communities to NA.  Compensation takes many forms and much
> of what we still do in a community is not directly related to payment.
> Nobody pays me to drive safely or give up my seat on a bus.
>
>
>
> As 2nd generation in my early fifties I?ve had the pleasure of being able
> to talk to the generation that settled farms in Canada ? though we are now 4
> generations from that time. I?ve also been able to talk to people that
> participated in the first garment industry strike in NYC and the subsequent
> development of labour laws and unions.
>
>
>
> In the Canadian prairies for example the communities that formed around
> farming were pretty impoverished by today?s standards and a ?single family
> unit? had little chance to survive. The only time for building was in the
> winter after the fields were put to rest and it was a limited timeframe and
> more than one person or family could accomplish (though many did try). The
> communities were primarily European with village origins and well used to
> working within a community framework. Farms needed markets for livestock and
> grain which required everyone to have the capability to produce to create
> enough resource to elicit a market for transportation and supply. Given the
> limited timeframe for building it required planning and community effort
> that everyone profited from. This extended to the construction of community
> stock pens, graineries, etc. as well as co-operative financing. For Canada
> this was the birth of the co-operative movement which continues in the form
> of financial banking, gasoline and even grocery stores. As communities
> became marginally wealthier barn raising evolved into co-operative financing
> (as farm communities still did not have the wealth to attract other forms of
> financing) and people hired each other and paid fairly.
>
>
>
> I have volunteered time for many things and have donated a lot of design
> and physical work time to social housing projects. There are always needs in
> a community for which there is inadequate funding. An example from me is
> creating a house (group home) working with a parent group of children with
> special needs.  That was a form of barn raising.
>
>
>
> I think what worries me is the types of sentiment that can be used to
> exploit. Even the concept of ?home? or ?green home? can sentimentally
> inspire people to create a building that has no relationship to their needs
> just to fill some empty hole. As I mentioned before we occupy a house on
> average for 11 hours (8.5 of which are spent sleeping). Our homes are
> equally (and predominantly for our conscious time) the workplaces and
> schools we occupy, the transportation we use.
>
>
>
> Individual homes are not an ?old? or ?timeless? concept ? even in western
> culture it is relatively new. It wasn?t that long ago that people of
> European origin we were all sleeping in some big room together (and most
> other cultures). Isolating a few people in a green building and then
> inviting each other over to paint the place is not community building in my
> mind though it can be a nice shared activity ? I would prefer making dinner.
> Spending time together working on social co-operative or cohousing solutions
> gets a little better.
>
>
>
> My thoughts ? but like I said too many issues
>
>
>
> *JOHN SALMEN ENVIRONMENTAL DESIGN*
>
> *4465 UPHILL RD**,. DUNCAN, B.C.  CANADA, V9L 6M7*
>
> *PH 250 748 7672 <tel:+12507487672> FAX 250 748 7612 <tel:+12507487612>CELL 250
> 246 8541 <tel:+12502468541>*
>
> *terrain at shaw.ca***
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:
> greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] *On Behalf Of *natural
> building
> *Sent:* January 23, 2011 11:55 AM
>
> *To:* Green Building
> *Subject:* Re: [Greenbuilding] Solutions (to the ecological problem)
>
>
>
> On 23-Jan-11, at 11:40 AM, JOHN SALMEN wrote:
>
>
>
>  Similarly if I hire or train people for a building project that labour is
> part of the cost of that project and if the project cannot afford it then
> that project has no value in the community.
>
>
>
> John, what are your thoughts on the very old and very community-oriented
> practice of barn-raising, where every able-bodied member of the community
> helped out without expectation of any compensation other that refreshments
> and, perhaps, reciprocal help when it came time to build their own barn?
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Steve Satow
>
>
>
> www.naturalbuildingsite.net
>
> naturalbuilding at shaw.ca
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 09:32:35 -0500
From: Clarke Olsen <colsen at fairpoint.net>
To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] our solution to the ecological problem
Message-ID: <92593B35-3198-458D-925F-A1B64D02E5D1 at fairpoint.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed

Ben,
I agree: "universe" was just my attempt to be brief and inclusive,
not to be sidetracked
by the enormity of space.
Clarke Olsen
Spencertown, NY 12165
colsen at fairpoint.net

On Jan 23, 2011, at 2:13 PM, Benjamin Pratt wrote:

> Clarke:
> I differ in opinion on the your sentence.  If we spent as much time
> trying to understand our own planet and it's ecology as we do "to
> understand the reality of our universe", we may be in less danger. If,
> for example, the budget of NASA did not go towards exploring outer
> space, but to exploring the oceans, rainforests, the poles, and the
> environment in general, we may be fining some solutions to the issues
> this planet is facing. Instead it seems we continue to look for a
> habitable planet to move to once we destroy this one.
> Ben
>
> --
>
>
> b e n j a m i n p r a t t
>
> professor art+design
> the university of wisconsin stout
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/
> greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 18:02:40 -0500
From: Stewart Abbey <sabbey at sympatico.ca>
To: greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org
Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Steam Shower?
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP736B6CBB30882F0F31BD34BFFA0 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed

I'm a bit late on this one but here is my experience.
The plumber hooked up our steam shower to be fed by cold water.
Obviously the energy is the same to heat the water to steam with
electricity from the hot water tank or with electricity from the steam
generator.  The difference in my case was the steam cycled off about 15
seconds per minute while it heated the water from the cold water line.
I have since fed the steam generator with water from the hot water line
and it only cycles
off about 2 or 3 seconds per minute, a dramatic improvement in warm up time.
As I will never use the steam shower in non spaceheating seasons,
virtually all the energy used is returned to the house as heat.  It
makes good double use of the shower space compared to a sauna which
would have required a dedicated space.
Our generator is a Mr. Steam 8kw I think.

Thank-you for all the great advice on this list.
Stewart Abbey

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 12:18:23 -0600
From: Lawrence Lile <LLile at projsolco.com>
To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Nansulate insulation
Message-ID: <AC254829C2A6324CB4DF94CED1DB37FB663A12DE5F at exchange>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

http://nanopore.com/thermal2.html

" Insulated Shipping Containers

NanoPore(tm) VIPs and inserts have been used extensively in insulated shipping applications both as single use to replace or supplement to
conventional polyurethane (PU) or expanded polystyrene (EPS) shipping systems and in reusable applications. Advantages include
 reduction in package size/weight, reduced shipping costs and longer product lifetimes. For more informantion on insulated shipping click here"

Somewhere in the world, one of these vacuum insulated shipping containers is probably available for surplus.  Some enterprising scrounger is going to have one really high tech recycled house!

Now, this also means that there are conventional insulated shipping containers.  Hmmm...   I never realized there was such a thing.  Everyone, no doubt, has seen the houses built out of shipping containers.  Could you buy one surplus pre-insulated with conventional foam?  Cool!

--Lawrence Lile

> -----Original Message-----
> From: greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:greenbuilding-
> bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Norman Feldman
> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 8:43 AM
> To: greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: [Greenbuilding] Nansulate insulation
>
> A few years ago Serious Materials had Thermarock, a sheetrock with builtin
> Aerogel. I don't see it on their website now, though, so it might have been
> discontinued.
> http://www.greenformat.com/products/1700-ThermaRock-240-245
>
> VIP panels (vacuum insulated panels) are thin with high R-value. Two manufacturers
> I was in touch with in 2009:
> http://nanopore.com/
> 1/2" was R20. contact was Doug Smith, smith at nanopore.com
>
> http://www.va-q-tec.com/paneele_en,2753.html
> 12 mm thick panel with R value of 11 (55-70 Euros/square meter) and a 40mm thick
> panel (two 20mm panels), R37 (140-180 Euros/sq.meter). The R values and prices
> have probably changed since then. The contact person was Dr. Roland Caps,
> Caps at va-q-tec.com.
>
>
>
>
oenergylists.org

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 12:22:07 -0600
From: Lawrence Lile <LLile at projsolco.com>
To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: [Greenbuilding] Insulated SHipping Container
Message-ID: <AC254829C2A6324CB4DF94CED1DB37FB663A12DE61 at exchange>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csNeFYs8qpg

That's what I'm talking about!  House built out of an insulated R-30 shipping container, with an addition for the plumbing core.

--Lawrence Lile,

------------------------------

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End of Greenbuilding Digest, Vol 5, Issue 33
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