[Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors

Wed Jul 27 17:49:24 CDT 2011

Maybe I missed something, but you said ³where the stain and sealer have
pulled up, there's plain white.²

Regarding etching... I was thinking that the concrete had a sealer on it
before you stained and coated it.  I misinterpreted your comments.  Between
the stain and the topcoat, usually nothing gets done to the surface, except
maybe a rinsing with water.  But, that would depend on what stain they used.
They should provide you with a tech data or MSDS for the products they used
upon your request.

Contact a local surface preparation company to determine if shot blasting
will work in your particular situation.  Shot blasting (or even water
blasting) would be less dusty, but the equipment may not fit in the
hallways.  Grinding is typically done for smaller, more confined areas and
requires more physical labor to accomplish.  In any event, it wont be a
picnic.  

Andrew Pace
Green Design Center®
Waukesha, WI

On 7/27/11 5:34 PM, "Ktot (g)" <ktottotc at gmail.com> wrote:

> I can't imagine the dark stains that are peeling up are white based, but I'm
> no stain expert and (another problem) the contractor refuses to tell me the
> brand/name of stain used (other than it's water-based).
>  
> What do you mean "the concrete was never acid etched before using the sealer"?
> I don't believe anything was done after staining before sealing other than
> waiting a few days. What is the etching that should have been done--how is it
> done, etc.? This could be useful in further documenting the problems (since
> ultimately the contractor IS going to be paying for my new floor, though
> probably not by their choice).
>  
> Also can you explain more about shot blasting? You say it's more
> cost-effective, but how does it compare to grinding as far as time involved,
> how much it's going to totally mess up my house, etc.? No one's mentioned this
> yet but it sounds like something I should look into, especially since sealer
> removal will be required whether I go with more concrete staining or with tile
> (or something else I haven't yet considered). We're talking about 1500 sq. ft.
> in multiple rooms and hallways.
>>  
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>  
>> From:  Andrew Pace <mailto:andy at safebuildingsolutions.com>
>>  
>> To: Green Building <mailto:greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>  
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 5:23  PM
>>  
>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all  floors
>>  
>> 
>> Non-acid stains  like soy stains or polymer stains only sit on the surface
>> and in some of the  macro-pores of the concrete.  Acid stain works by
>> chemically reacting  with the free lime in the concrete and the salts in the
>> stain, to physically  alter the chemistry of the concrete, thus changing the
>> color.  The white  you see could be a white base stain, or, it could be that
>> the concrete was  never acid etched before using the sealer.  Acid etching
>> removes the  ³cream² off the surface of the concrete.  This is the fine white
>> or grey  powder that will eventually dust off the surface.  Without removing
>> the  cream, any coating or topical stain will eventually peel off the
>> surface,  since its only sticking to dust.
>> 
>> Grinding and shot blasting are  two different ways to achieve the same end
>> result.  It its a large area,  shot blasting will be more cost effective and
>> will require less prep before  the next coating is applied.
>> 
>> 
>> Andrew Pace
>> Green Design Center®
>> Waukesha, WI
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 7/27/11 5:05 PM, "Ktot (g)"  <ktottotc at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>  
>>> I have been told  water-based stain--which was used to get the mottled
>>> creative pattern that  was intended (without white blooms)--does not sink
>>> into the concrete like  acid-stain does. Either way, where the stain and
>>> sealer have pulled up,  there's plain white. It's chalky. Numerous concrete
>>> contractors had no idea  what that was, telling me my contractor must have
>>> done a white layer of  stain first, which I knew was not the case. One
>>> finally pointed out it's  calcium carbonate that chemically reacted to
>>> something (the diesel/propane  fuel? the exterior stain that was used
>>> indoors [as I later found out]?) That  makes sense to me as one gets white
>>> on the finger when rubbing those areas.  The white areas are all white--the
>>> stain has completely lifted up. So it  does not seem to have gone down into
>>> the concrete--unless there is more  under the calcium carbonate.
>>>  
>>> Also I should have mentioned  earlier much of the sealer seems to have
>>> disappeared. When put down it was  very shiny (as it was supposed to remain)
>>> but now in many areas there  appears to be little or no sealer (this is from
>>> work done two months ago),  and one contractor commented the sealer is soft
>>> (vs. it supposedly the  hardest, most durable there is per my contractor who
>>> clearly misled me in  numerous ways).
>>>  
>>> Per the sealer tech rep, the sealer does need  to be removed whether I go
>>> with concrete again or with tile. He seems to  lean towards grinding to
>>> remove it. Is that the same as the shot blast you  mention?
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
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